Coping with a Toxic Work Environment with Dr. Chivonna Childs

Podcast Transcript

Speaker 1:

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Kate Kaput:

Hi, and thank you for joining us for this episode of the Health Essentials podcast. My name is Kate Kaput, and I'll be your host. Today, we're talking to Psychologist, Chivonna Childs about toxicity in the workplace. Going to work every day in a hostile environment can be harmful to your mental and emotional health, which can in turn even lead to physical symptoms. Dr. Childs is here today to talk to us about the signs of a toxic workplace and what you can do to cope. Dr. Childs, thanks so much for joining us today.

Dr. Childs:

You're very welcome.

Kate Kaput:

So I always like to start by asking our guests to tell us a little bit about themselves. What can you tell us about the work that you do here at the Cleveland Clinic? What kind of patients do you typically see?

Dr. Childs:

So I am a staff psychologists here at the Cleveland Clinic and typically I see patients struggling with anxiety and depressive disorders.

Kate Kaput:

OK. So that makes a lot of sense given what we're about to talk about, toxic work environments can lead to both anxiety and depression. I'm going to ask you in a moment to go into some example of workplace toxicity, but first I want to ask: We spend so much of our time working that a toxic workplace can really have a negative impact on our quality of life. Can you explain a little bit what can happen to us mentally and emotionally when we're experiencing a toxic work environment? What kind of effect can it have on our mental health and our wellbeing?

Dr. Childs:

When we're working in any environment that's toxic, we can feel isolated, which means feeling alone. It can lead to depression, it can lead to sleeplessness, it can lead to poor appetite. It can attack our self-esteem. It can increase our anxiety as we begin to worry if we're good enough to be here, if people like us, if we're going to lose our job. That workplace toxicity can take a lot of draining avenues, a lot of rabbit holes that we start to go down as we worry about the workplace in which we're entering on a daily basis. And if you think about it, our workplace is the place where we spend almost more time than we spend with our families. We're there eight to 10, maybe sometimes even 12 hours a day. So that's going to have a heavy toll on our mental and emotional health.

Kate Kaput:

So it can be really pervasive into the rest of our life as well. I would imagine that if you're having a hard time at work, if you're in a toxic work environment, that can also impact your ability to do your work, your ability to focus on the work you do, and to turn out good work. Is that right?

Dr. Childs:

Absolutely. So the thing about the toxic workplace is it's not just detrimental to the worker themselves, it's actually detrimental to the company. Because if your worker is feeling like they're in a toxic workplace, they're feeling isolated, they're probably not going to be as productive and absentee rates are going to go up because I might start calling off more. And I might start calling off more because physically I really don't feel well. I have a headache, I have muscle tension, I have gastrointestinal problems. My stomach's bothering me. Every time I think about getting up and going to this place that I don't want to be, my tummy does not feel well.

              There may be times where you literally can't get out of bed and that can be the depression, or you're so anxious that you're nauseated. Those are things that people literally can have that will make them call off of work. If you're not at work, you're not productive. Or if you do you manage to get to work, you're not productive and your creativity isn't there. So if you have all of these things happening, the workplace is suffering as well.

Kate Kaput:

So unhappy workers can really impact a company's bottom line too. That makes sense. So let's talk about what we mean when we say toxic work environment, what kinds of things can make for a toxic workplace? What might that entail?

Dr. Childs:

So there are a number of things that can make a workplace toxic for any individual and we can all have our individual experiences. A toxic workplace can have a place where people feeling bullied. They can either feel bullied by another coworker, they can feel bullied by their boss, they can feel bullied in a number of situations. When we have cliques at work where there's a group of people who have their own inside jokes, their own little community and you're feeling on the outside — that can be toxic for you. If you have a boss that's overly demanding, or that's a helicopter boss and is micromanaging, that can feel toxic because you feel like you can't move. You feel like you're being smothered. If you're assigned a project to work with a team [on] and one member is controlling everything and you feel like, again, you can't move without this person telling you no, you shouldn't be doing that or this is wrong, those kinds of situations can also be. It can make the workplace toxic, it can make you not want to be there, it can make you feel uncomfortable.

Kate Kaput:

What about kind of unreasonable expectations, like expecting you to be on call all the time, working crazy hours without extra compensation, things like that. Can that count as a toxic workplace?

Dr. Childs:

Absolutely. And I think that the people who fall the most into those are new employees and employees who feel like they cannot lose their jobs. People out here are paying their bills, they can't afford to not have their job. And so if an employer knows that and they may be taking advantage and they know that Susan will always pick up the phone, Susan will always pick up an extra shift. "Oh, just ask Susan," no, because this person is afraid of losing their job. That's a toxic work environment.

              So while this person is doing this, she's not spending time at home, she's missing time with her family, she's also missing time on self-care. So she can't even balance work-life balance, it's not happening because she's always working. In any job we shouldn't always be working. That's not rational, it's not reasonable.

Kate Kaput:

Susan is actually very stressed out and anxious and sad. She doesn't want to be on call all the time.

Dr. Childs:

Yes. We're going to call her sad Susan, because she's not happy.

Kate Kaput:

Sad Susan. So there are some other things that can happen at work that clearly cross lines like verbal abuse, sexual harassment, and racism. Can you talk a little bit about scenarios like these and how they can impact a person's day to day work experience?

Dr. Childs:

Absolutely. So there are a few scenarios that I come to think about, and I know that I'm talking to an audience that can resonate with this. So I will just ask for people to think about a time where you experienced a microaggression. I can think off the top of my head, I remember one very well for myself and it wasn't intentional, but this happened almost 25 years ago and I remember it like it was yesterday. I was in a business meeting and we were talking about childhood groups that we belong to. And I said, "Oh, I used to be a brownie." And one of my white coworkers pinched my cheek and said, "And you still are."

Kate Kaput:

Oh no.

Dr. Childs:

She didn't realize what she had done. It was a microaggression, it was extremely offensive and she had no clue.

Kate Kaput:

Yeah.

Dr. Childs:

And I was mortified. I was mortified. I was like in shock and really didn't know what to say. And I had to pull her aside afterwards and let her know that was totally inappropriate, totally inappropriate. So those types of things are microaggressions. There's also one that I call the invisible woman, whether you're the only woman in the room or you're the only woman of color in the room. And the person speaking is giving eye contact to everyone but you, and you feel invisible because eye contact is everything. It is a nonverbal form of communication. If I am giving you eye contact, I am saying to you that I see you, you mean something to me, you're important to this meeting. Often times that eye contact is not given to a person of color or if she's the only woman, and so you feel invisible.

              The other thing that happens in those types of meeting is that marginalized or that person of minority status will have a great idea and it's not acknowledged, but the majority person in that room will say the very same thing and kudos are given, applauds are given, it's a wonderful idea. And the marginalized person is sitting there going, "I just said that 20 minutes ago." And so you feel like your ideas are stolen.

Kate Kaput:

And how can that make you feel in terms of feeling whether it's really happening or not. Did anybody notice that I just said that? I would imagine that can make people feel invisible, weigh on their self-worth.

Dr. Childs:

It can make you question like, again, "Am I imagining this? Maybe this didn't happen the way I thought it did." And then you're sitting there already having experienced a microaggression, already in a toxic type of workplace and then you're having to go through this in your head. So you're going through multiple levels of things throughout your day that a lot of other people don't have to go through. The same with the sexual harassment. Somebody saying something and it's not overtly sexual, but you feel uncomfortable. If you're feeling uncomfortable, there's a problem. But you're sitting there thinking, "Well, maybe he didn't mean it, or maybe she didn't mean to touch me that way, or maybe, or maybe."

              If you're having to do those things and you are uncomfortable, follow your gut. We have intuition for a reason. Listen to your body, listen to your senses. And if you feel it's a problem, tap a trusted colleague, tap a trusted coworker and check in, ask, that's what colleagues are for. Again, a trusted colleague. That's what colleagues are for so that you're not alone. Build a trusted support system that you can go to.

Kate Kaput:

I think that's actually a really good segue into the next question. Sometimes toxic workplaces aren't as clear cut as abuse and harassment. It's more of a feeling you get when things just don't feel good. People are doing things that make you uncomfortable and you can't figure out why. Are there any other examples that you can give us of this kind of workplace toxicity or are ways that you can determine whether they're really happening or not, or are you just being too sensitive? Because oftentimes these things are presented as, "Oh, I'm just joking. It's just a joke, it's no big deal." What do you do in those scenarios?

Dr. Childs:

Again, follow your gut. If you were feeling a certain type of way about something, if it is bothering you, check in with another trusted colleague, run it by them. And because if it's happening to you, nine times out of 10 it's happening to someone else or someone else has witnessed it. So I would check in just to bounce it off somebody else. And if it continues to bother you, follow the chain of command. Don't jump over anybody's head unnecessarily, but follow the chain of command and see what that looks like. Speak up for yourself and advocate for yourself. There should always be an HR representative to go to and look at how they're treating employees. If they're just treating them like resources? Problem. If they're treating them like valued people, great, that's what you want. And so looking for that.

              Another thing that I've just learned through working in different places and being in a toxic work environment is document, document, document. If something is happening and you are not sure and it's making you feel like, "OK, I don't know if this is me, if I'm making this up, if this is my perception or is this really happening," document time, date, quick bullet point of what happened and just keep your own journal.

Kate Kaput:

Now, what if you work in a place where there is no HR, maybe you're at a very small company or you don't have an HR department that you trust. Are there any other options for coping with toxic work environments?

Dr. Childs:

So in those situations, self-care is pivotal. Even if it they do have HR, even if it's a corporate organization of 5 million people, self-care is going to be pivotal no matter where you are. My whole premise, my idea, is that when you can, because sometimes we can't, let's just be fair, work should be left at work. Even if you're working from home, because a lot of us are working from home and toxic workplace stuff still happens when you're working from home. Because we have group chats where people are still gossiping in the group chats, or we know that they're chatting offline about certain things, or we still feel left out because we're in a zoom meeting and one person has the power to mute everybody so you don't get to speak up. So we have to be inventive about the ways that we still advocate for ourselves.

              Learn to use the raise the hand thing in your zoom. We can still be heard we can still be seen, but making sure that you have self-care. What do you like to do for yourself on your off hours? Are there massages? Are there mani-pedis? What's your self-care toolbox look like? Do you meditate? Even at work when you have your 15 minute breaks, your lunch breaks, you can find a five minute meditation on anxiety, depression. You can find a five minute meditation on anything. Pop your earbuds in, nobody has to know what you're doing and listen to your five minute meditation. Do a five minute deep breathing exercise, but take that time for yourself.

              I tell people all the time, the three most important people in my life are me, myself and I. If I can take care of those three people, everything else is going to be fine. So you have to learn to prioritize yourself and it will make everything else better, it will give you some clarity, and then you can decide what you want to do about your job. Because as a lot of us would like to do, just say, "Oh, I'll just go find another job," for a lot of people that's not a realistic option.

Kate Kaput:

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you. One of the things that you mentioned in terms of figuring out whether what you're experiencing is real or maybe it's just frustration versus toxicity, you mentioned discussing it with coworkers. And I think when we're upset about work, that's something that a lot of us feel inclined to do is to talk about it with other our people. Can you share some tips for creating a network of support without veering into gossip territory or contributing to that toxicity yourself.

Dr. Childs:

And so that is a very good point because it is very easy to veer into gossip specifically when we're so upset about what has happened to us. So my suggestions would be to speak about the incident, not about the person, to be very careful of who you're speaking to and making sure that you have a trusted person that you are speaking to. And to keep your circle tight, to keep it to like two or three people that you trust, that you know is not a gossiper themselves and that they're going to keep what you say in that circle. And again, not use names, no blaming, just stating the facts. We're not going to assign anything to anybody what happened, how you felt, what you want to about it.

Kate Kaput:

And I like that, keep your circle tight, you're not running it by everybody. You're picking one or two people who you know that you really trust and you can say, "Hey, can you weigh in on this for me?" Not, "Hey, can you join me in talking badly about a colleague who I think did something," but about the situation itself.

              So what about when it feels like the toxicity is coming from one person? I think we've all been there. You have one colleague who feels particularly toxic, maybe they're the gossip, maybe they're really mean to at work, maybe they're volatile. Can you share any tip for respectfully and professionally distancing yourself from a problematic coworker who you still have to work with?

Dr. Childs:

So in the beginning you can just try to change the subject. Don't indulge, don't commiserate with them on that because it's easy to get sucked in against, especially if you're new. Try not to join in. If they continue to go on, excuse me, you can let them know that this is not a comfortable space for you, this is not something that you would like to indulge in. If they continue to do that, you can just be upfront with them. “This is not something that I want to do,” and remove of yourself from the situation. We teach people how to treat us. If we are not a part of something, fire can't burn without fuel. So you starve the fire, walk away, and then they have to find someone else to do that with. But you can remove yourself from the situation without being rude, without disrupting the relationship if there's going to be one. But they're choosing not to have a relationship if they choose to continue to gossip, if they're not going to respect your wishes for not gossiping with you or around you.

Kate Kaput:

I like that. We teach people how to treat us where it's like if someone knows that you're not a safe space for them to gossip, because you just won't put up with it, then they're not going to come to you in the first place. I like that. So let's talk a little bit about other workplace boundaries. That work-life balance can be especially elusive when you're working at a job where you're expected to be on call all the time, or when you work from home and your computer is right next to you all the time, or when you're given more work than you could ever feasibly complete. What are some examples? How can you go about setting and enforcing those workplace boundaries for yourself?

Dr. Childs:

So I always tell people no is a complete sentence. And I do understand when we're at work, there are power differentials. You just don't walk up to your boss and say, "No, I'm not doing this. You can go suck it." We're not going to do that, we want to be respectful. But as workers, we do have rights. We can say, "No," what's the and procedures if we want to go that far, what's my PTO, let's use your PTO how it should be used. What are the on call duties? How much on call should I be doing? And then stick to that. And knowing that you can say no, is the on call being spread equally among all the workers? No one worker should be doing on call every weekend. It should be spread and making sure that [it] is spread and that you're not sad Susie. And because you're so nice that everybody's asking Susie to do this every weekend. No. And so setting those boundaries and sticking to those, and when they're not being adhered to, speaking to your supervisor about that and following the appropriate channels.

Kate Kaput:

And so again, really teaching people how to treat us, standing firm to the boundaries that we create for ourselves. And if it does come time to find a new job, or maybe you're looking for a new job for another reason, nobody goes into a new job expecting it to be toxic. Is there anything that you can do when you're on the job hunt that might clue you into whether or not this is going to be a safe space for you mentally and emotionally? What can people look for?

Dr. Childs:

Absolutely. Some of the things that you can do, some of the red flags you can look for is look at their turnover rate. Is there a high turnover rate at this job? And if there is, see if you can talk to some of the employees that work there, see how they talk about their colleagues, how are they talking about the leadership? If there's interview videos and the bosses are acting bad in the interview videos, that's a big clue. One of the things that I like to do when I would go on interviews is I would watch how the person who was interviewing me, how they spoke to the people on the way through the building, from the janitor to the physicians. If they spoke to the janitor and they knew the janitor's name, or they knew the elevator tech’s name, and they had a relationship and they spoke back, I was extremely impressed, because that meant they had a relationship and they cared about their people. And so that was important to me. So looking at the relationships they have with the people around them, those things are very important.

Kate Kaput:

That reminds me of the idea that when you go on a first date, you see how your date treats the server. And if the date is rude to the server, it's a red flag. That's a rule for life, how do people treat the people around them and who they perceive to be on the same level as them and not.

Dr. Childs:

Correct.

Kate Kaput:

Yeah. What about making sure that you're in a workplace that aligns with your value system? I would imagine that if you're working for a company that does something, where the whole job is something that maybe doesn't align with what you believe in the world, that that could also lend itself to some toxicity.

Dr. Childs:

Yeah, and that's really a big one. I would strongly suggest working for a company that aligns with your values, because if you don't, it's going to be almost toxic from the beginning. Because as soon as they do something you don't like, you're going to be unhappy. And so you're going to be looking for a job very soon, unless you're there to make some change and you're in a position to make that change and you feel like you're in a company that's willing to listen and you have some power, some pull, and you're willing to put in the fight. But yes, a company that resonates with your values and you feel like you can grow there. And that's another thing, a place where you can grow. If you're stuck, if there's no forward movement, if you're just going to be where you're going to be and that's not good enough, it is probably time to move on and that's probably not a place you want to be.

Kate Kaput:

Anything else that we haven't talked about today, Dr. Childs, that you think is important for people to know about workplace toxicity, how to recognize it, how to deal with it?

Dr. Childs:

I think that we've covered it all. I think that my biggest thing and of course because I'm a psychologist, my biggest thing is self-care. With all of this, making sure that you pour into yourself. And I tell people this all the time, not to be mean or facetious, but if something happens to you tomorrow, your job will replace you the next day. You need to be able to take care of yourself today. You need to be able to pour love, confidence, power — you need to be able to pour that into yourself so that you can move forward. What is your goal for yourself? What do you want for you? What is your purpose? What are you here to do? Figure that out and go live your life, go do that, whatever that means for you. And create a safe space for yourself so that you can be happy no matter what your job is. That would be my goal.

Kate Kaput:

I think that's a perfect note to end on. Thank you so much. Dr. Childs, thank you for being here with us today.

Dr. Childs:

Thank you for having me. I enjoyed this so much.

Kate Kaput:

Thank you. If you would like to schedule an appointment with Cleveland Clinic Center for Behavioral Health, please visit clevelandclinic.org/behavioralhealth, or call 216-636-5860. Thanks so much for joining us today.

Speaker 1:

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