Exploring Neurosurgery – Davina’s Story with Davina McCall and Mr Kevin O'Neill

Podcast Transcript

Mr Kash Akhtar

Welcome to the latest edition of Exploring Health with Cleveland Clinic London. Thank you to Cleveland Clinic Philanthropy UK for supporting this podcast. I'm your host Kash Akhta, I'm a Consultant Orthopaedic Knee Surgeon. Today's episode is a deeply personal one. It's about facing fear, making difficult and potentially life changing decisions and the unexpected relationships that can form in moments of uncertainty. So, if you're ever worried about a serious diagnosis, wondered how to choose the right doctor or just wanted a reminder that modern medicine can be both cutting edge and deeply personal and human, then this conversation is for you. Joining me today are two remarkable guests: We have Kevin O'Neill, A consultant neurosurgeon here at Cleveland Clinic London. Kevin is a leading expert in brain tumour surgery and a Co-investigator at the Brain Tumour Research Centre of Excellence at Imperial College London. He's here to help us understand more about diagnosis and treating brain tumours. The value of empathy and understanding and how world class care can make all the difference. And Davina McCall, one of the UK's most beloved presenters and a passionate advocate for health and well-being. Davina has inspired millions through her honesty, energy and openness, especially in her work around fitness, menopause awareness and mental health. But in late 2024, her own journey took a new turn when she was diagnosed with the type of brain tumour, by chance, and had to make a decision about having brain surgery. So, in this episode we talk about what it feels like to hear the words ‘brain tumour’, how to find the right surgeon and trust them, and how a diagnosis in a medical experience can change your life for the better. This is a powerful and human story that you won't want to miss. So, Davina…

Davina McCall 

Hi. 

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Hello. Can you take us back to when you first found out something wasn't quite right and how that came about?

Davina McCall 

So what was quite mad about it was that it was actually August 2023 that I found out

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Right.

Davina McCall 

that I had a colloid cyst. I'm going to try and do an abridged version of this story because it could go on for hours, but it basically I did a documentary about the pill and on this documentary, a woman from One Welbeck inserted a coil for me and I was trying to show women that this was an amazing form of contraceptive voted very highly on The Lowdown, which was a kind of public place where people reviewed contraceptives and the coil came out the highest. But everyone was like, “no way. It's too painful”. So, I was like trying to show. So, I had a coil put in on television. 

Mr Kash Akhtar

Live on TV?

Davina McCall 

Live on TV. Not live, right, but on TV 

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yeah, on camera

Davina McCall 

And you know, obviously strategic camera placing and all that. 

Mr Kash Akhtar

Yeah. 

Davina McCall 

But I just thought, look, I want people to see me and me not going [imitates crying out] you know, because I think that's what women think it's like. 

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yeah

Davina McCall 

So, I was working with Dame Leslie Regan. She put it in for me.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

So, she taught me in Medical School

Davina McCall 

Did she? Legend.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Boy, did she... She intimidated the hell out me as a Med student.

Davina McCall 

She is one of the most amazing women I've ever met. 

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Ah, absolutely.

Davina McCall

She does so much for Women's Health. She is absolutely incredible and she then said, and Rupaul, you must come and do a talk about the menopause for everybody that works at One Welbeck. And, so, I said yes, of course I will. And me and Leslie did a sort of chat to everybody there. And then, Rupaul said, “Look, we'd like to offer you a health check”. I was like, “I really don't need it. I'm the healthiest person you're ever likely to meet”. And she said, “no, we really want to do it for you. We'd like to insist that you that you do that with us, it's the least we could do”. 

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Like a full body MOT.

Davina McCall 

So, I was sort of like, I literally kind of huffed, you know, I thought, who's got two days to do a full body MOT really don't need it. Anyway, I did it and they come back with a few things, like little things, but with a colloid cyst in my brain and I was like, “what do you mean?” And they said, “oh, it's a benign brain tumour”. I said, well, “how long have I had it? “And they said, “Since you were born, probably”. And I thought, well, if I've had it since I was born and it's benign, I don't need to do anything about it. And I left it and then somebody chased me up on it and said, “we think you should actually go and see somebody”. So, I went to see Andrew McAvoy at the Cleveland Clinic, and I had a chat with him, and he took me through it, and it was a shock. It was a big shock to me.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

The implications

Davina McCall 

Yeah, because I thought oh this is much worse than I thought it was. I just thought I had the word ‘benign’ and I thought it doesn't mean anything.

Mr Kash Akhtar

And you and you've had it your whole life. So you think, well, it's not bothered me so far.

Davina McCall

Yeah Exactly and I thought I was asymptomatic, but I realise now that I did have symptoms, but I didn't realise that they were so slow and by stealth my symptoms came by stealth. And so, he [Andrew McAvoy] said, look, I do think you should go and talk to a surgeon because if it grew any more. It was filling the space. It was 14 millimetres. “If it grows anymore, it could be an emergency. You will need to be taken into surgery straight away and it would be quite a good idea to have a surgeon in mind If that was to happen”. So then I started thinking oh God, I'm living with a time bomb in my head. I don't know if it'll grow when it'll grow, why it might grow. I - my daughter lives in Australia. What happens if it starts growing on a plane. So, I went to go and see someone, and they were talking about an endoscopic approach, but I felt like there was something funny about going through lots of healthy brain to get to somewhere, and I was thinking this feels...and I took my doctor to that meeting. So, I was like I- I need to read between the lines. Are you telling me to do this or not? And she said “I think he is saying you should get this done”. And I thought I need a second opinion.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Without explicitly saying so.

Davina McCall 

Yes, you. It's almost like you can't really tell somebody to get something taken out if they think they're asymptomatic and it might never grow again.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

It's a dilemma, I think we will have, isn't it?

Davina McCall 

There's a that’s a really, I mean, you can talk about that in a minute, but then I called Caprice Bourret. I don't know if you guys know her.

Mr Kevin O’Neill 

The famous model?

Davina McCall

Yeah. She's a famous model. And she was on The Jump, which was a TV programme that I hosted. And while she was on the jump, she got a concussion skiing, and she had to go to hospital to go and have a brain scan for her concussion. They found a brain tumour. She came back. She had her brain tumour removed and she became a patron of the brain tumour Charity. 

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

The Brian Tumour Research Charity which is an umbrella charity.
 

Davina McCall

And so she said [imitates American accent] “Davina, There's only one guy you need to take this tumour out”. [normal voice] And I was like, oh, yeah, who's that? She went [imitates American accent] Kevin O'Neill. I'm gonna pass you his number. He's gotta do it. You gotta meet him. Just FaceTime with him. He's absolutely fantastic. I'm telling you, she's going: This tumour does not belong in your head. You got to get it taken out right now. [normal voice] And I was crying my eyes out. So. I was like. What? Oh, my God. So we had to FaceTime together.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah, we did. Remote, didn't we? Yeah. 

Davina McCall 

Yeah. With Michael. 

Mr Kevin O’Neill 

It's very good impression, actually.

Davina McCall 

Thank. You. And that's when I decided that if I was going to have it removed - and I hadn't decided to get it done yet - but if I was going to have it removed, me and Michael both agreed... and it is a feeling. And it's different with everybody. But I knew Kevin was the man. And I don't know whether that's the universe or whether it's fate or whatever, but I felt like it had to be you.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

And this was remotely so this wasn't even in person. 

Davina McCall 

No
 
Mr Kash Akhtar 

So, you've got a sense of something over the screen.

Davina McCall 

Yes. So, I'd spoken to Kevin. He was brilliant but I kept thinking I'm having brain surgery and I'm asymptomatic. What the? What am I doing? And I was at the masked singer. And I'd message because I've got her number off a friend of mine in America, a lady who was a brain surgeon in America. And I said, look, can I pay you for a consultation? She didn't charge me in the end. But I said, can I pay you for consultation? Because I need to find out If I'm doing the right thing or not. But I need you to, I need to tell you for sure. This is why I've chosen you in a different country that you will never operate on me. I swear on my life. Yeah, I just need an honest opinion. Would you get the operation or not?

So, I sent her the scan. She had a look at it, and she called me while I was at Big Brother. I mean, Oh my God...

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Masked singer? We’re gonna have to redo the operation.

Davina McCall 

Yeah. That was amazing, wasn't it? 
 
[All laughing]
 
Davina McCall 

Back at the masked singer. So, I was at the Masked Singer and I was pacing around talking to her in America. And she said “OK, First off, your surgeon. I know Kevin. I studied under him at Imperial” and I was like, what the hell, man? Is that? What are the chances that the one doctor I called in America has studied under you? She said “he is brilliant”. So I was like, OK, tick done. Then she said - I knew that about you, but it was really nice to hear it from somebody else that really knew you. Then. Secondly, she went craniotomy absolutely what I would do, looking at the size of it, how long you've had it, who you are, like, I would do exactly the same approach. You'd... a lot less healthy brain to get through in order to get to it, Good idea. I was like, great. And she said 40 millimetres, it’s big, take it out. I was like, OK, brilliant. And then I put the phone down. And I was like [imitates screaming] Oh my God, I was so happy to have someone say “Yes, do it, this is a good idea” and I was like, Oh my God. I'm doing the right thing.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

But d’you know what you gave her the leeway to do that.
 
Mr Kash Akhtar 

Incredibly smart thing to do. And Kevin, can you just tell us about colloid cysts because, look, when I see a cyst in a knee it’s a little pocket of fluid you can take it out. Whereas obviously in the brain there are quite significant ramifications. 

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah, It's basically an embryological remnant. So, you know, as you as you probably know that a lot of these occur in the midline as.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Assume very little of my knowledge.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

-as you fuse the various layers of the embryo together, you get little remnants of one layer in the other, and this is one of those. They can actually occur in other places and they can, you can often occur at the back of the brain in the cerebellum. Rarely. I mean, it's rare anyway, where it occurs, but classically occurs there. And you, you, all of the training, all the health and fitness stuff you've been doing over your years would never have kind of, you know, you there's certain things that people can get over and they can heal themselves. This is not one of them because this is a card you were dealt with; dealt at birth. And I suspect that it's probably grown with you to an extent where it was picked up on MRI and we couldn't really ignore it.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

It was a completely incidental finding. Is that what they normally are?

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

But no, no, some are symptomatic, some present. What I had to do with Davina is work out where she was on the on the sort of Natural History curve. What was the threat to her? Which way was she gonna go? And it's always difficult because as she pointed out, and many people pointed out to her, you can live and die with these. Without them causing your death or a problem. But there are certain indicators that suggest, well, you know it it could cause a problem. If they do cause a problem, it's usually quite serious. It happens quite quickly and can be catastrophic. You can  get a sudden – well - a near sudden death from it because of the build up of pressure. Normally there are symptoms that lead up to that.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

What kind of symptoms?

Mr Kevin O’Neill 

So, if you take it back to the first principles, the why does this cause a problem? It's a little cyst that's filling up with aligned with the ciliated endothelium and it produces a sort of mucinous material which can.... That production can carry on very slowly. 
 
Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yeah, like a glue. 

Mr Kevin O’Neill 

In fact, it actually looks like, for lack of a better description, it looks like snot. You know, it's a green sludge, basically colloid. And that's the colloid cyst. Yes. So, and, you know, you don't want that to escape cause it’s quite irritant inside. But it will slowly accumulate and as it does the cyst will enlarge. And the cyst is sitting at the confluence of 2 fluid filled ventricles which converge into a small slit like ventricle and it's right at that junction and it acts a bit like can act a bit like a ball valve so it can block that that that little window or frame as we call it foramen of Monro. Uh. And so what can happen is you you can build up pressure as the pressure builds up the ball sits in and closes the valve, and then the pressure builds up very suddenly, and your brain suffers and you, you can go off very quickly, and you can have a mild headache and then a severe headache and if it's not recognised quickly enough, suddenly the pressures gone through the roof and you die. I mean, that's  the nuts and bolts of. But there are there are ways of kind of predicting who's going to go in the safe direction or the untoward direction and one of the biggest one is the size and so over 1 centimetre probably is an indicator that should be considering doing something about it and yours was 14. And then there are other things like: Are you symptomatic? Do you have presence of fluid building up on the scan? Luckily you didn't, which is one of the reasons I said probably going through the ventricle because it's not dilated, it's gonna. Be a tough. Tough route for you because you've got hit the ventricle. Uh, so size, presence of symptoms like headache, size of, you know, presence of hydrocephalus, suggesting something's on its way in the wrong direction. Uh...

Mr Kash Akhtar 

A build up a pressure in the brain.
 
Mr Kevin O’Neill 

Yeah. And then little clues, little indicators and so like if AI were put onto this job, it would pick up something that we've already picked up that that the signal change that you see on the MRI scan. So, on a flare T2 flare, if it's a high signal, it indicates that that you were more likely to become symptomatic, so I suspect that's to do with the consistency of the colloid and how compliant or non compliant. Is, but yeah, I mean I overall what we we sat we sat down and and discussed and what I, and it's a two way thing you're assessing me and I'm assessing you, and you know I I was I was mulling over in my subconscious algorithm where you're going and I think at the end of the day I felt we couldn't really leave this. And it was a bit too big. And but as I said, to make that easier, we did test you right. We did. We did some neuropsychometric testing at the Cleveland, very good team. Yeah.

Mr Kash Akhtar 
 What is neuropsychometric testing? It’s something I’m not familiar with.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

So basically it's a-

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Davina can tell us. Yeah. Do you know? What did it entail?

Davina McCall 
 It's like a, you know, if you do those tests at school for non-verbal reasoning and verbal reasoning and those kind of things and but also memory testing which was the bit that I've actually found quite hard, I felt like my memory had been affected when I was doing those tests.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

So we did that test. I mean, if you don't mind, I mean, I mean basically I have to say for most part, you know you aced it. I mean on the non-verbal reasoning she was Mensa level. So which should go along with you know how she is on TV. Yeah, you could read a room quite well, I expect. But the the on the on the verbal memory, there was a little bit of deficiency. There’s a few little things.
 
Davina McCall 

I was shocked.

Mr Kevin O’Neill 

Yeah. Yeah. There's a few little things that were suggesting that you were symptomatic. And I think you even reflected on this and

Davina McCall 

Well, what was interesting - so my boyfriend, Michael is... he's a big kind of critical thinker but he has to move while he's thinking. So sometimes I'll be sat down and he'll talk me through an idea, but he kind of does this thing with his arms while he's telling me.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

That is Michael. I recognise it.

Mr Kash Akhtar

Yeah, yeah.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

That's his modus operandi. That’s how his brain is thinking.
 
Davina McCall 

And he does that. 

Mr Kevin O’Neill 

That's how he is. 

Davina McCall

So he can think. 
 
Mr Kevin O’Neill 

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
 
Davina McCall 

And I asked him twice in the year leading up to August 2023, I asked him twice: Do you think all the time? And he said to me. Yeah, like, of course I do and I was thinking to myself, I'm sure I used to do that. But then I thought, well, I've been meditating a bit recently ‘cause I've been quite stressed out with work and life and kids and and I've been trying to meditate a bit more and I thought, well, actually, maybe I'm just suddenly super present. Yeah. Like I'm acing the meditation –

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yeah. Clear mind.
 
Davina McCall 

and I've turned into a Zen kind of master. And actually it turns out...The first thing I remember after the operation - we will go back to the operation I'm sure - but the first thing I remember after the operation is the noise.

Mr Kevin O’Neill 

Hmm.

Davina McCall 

Of my thinking.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah.

Davina McCall 

I was like, oh, oh, like what? Oh, what is that? Oh my God. Ohh [imitates ringing telephone] my brain.

Mr Kevin O'Neill

Do you know what? You're the first person that said they've had the light switch back on again. 

Davina McCall 

Yeah
 
Mr Kevin O’Neill 

Yeah

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Looking back, do you think it affected your work?

Davina McCall 

No, I can - I'm almost on autopilot - I've been doing it for so long and I guess for Long Lost Family, which is the show that's been running the longest, I've been doing it for 15 years. And I just got so good that even after the operation, two months after the operation, I went back to Long Lost Family and I could remember that if somebody was looking for someone and I would come and say we found that person and this is their entire life: the name of their kids, the name of what, the job they do, where, where they've lived, how long they've lived there, for what I could remember all of that because it was muscle memory. It's something that I really remembered how to do it very easily but, I did have a couple of tools I started doing mind maps and I found visually writing something doing maps with like little arrows of where to go. That really helped me, but I definitely feel like my brain had gone to sleep a bit and I can feel it waking up daily.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Right? 

Davina McCall

Yeah, still.

Mr Kash Akhtar

Kevin, Umm, so I've treated quite a few athletes and, kind of, you know, some Frontpage Backpage people, but how do you feel when a high profile invisible person like Davina comes to you and they put the. Can they put their trust in? You how? Well, how's that? What's that like?

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Totally at home. I'm in my element. No, no, no. I mean, it is a bit daunting. You know, Davina is so familiar to most people particularly. I just remember I have this picture of you standing on the Big Brother stage as and the final. I remember that. And I told you once I looked at that and I thought somehow somewhere we're gonna get connected

Davina McCall

Isn't that funny?

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

and it came true.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

So, it's quite daunting. You know, people can get a little bit starstruck, you know, we've all got a little child inside of us, but I think it was helped by the first consultation being remote so 

Davina McCall 

Yes

Mr Kevin O’Neill 

but then the second consultation, it was quite quite eas- I was at ease and, you know, but in the back of your mind, you know, the process that you're about to go through and the fact that you might have to operate and what that entails and what that means in terms of risks and benefits and, uh, really, really pertinent to Davina because you know the biggest problem is I could have wrecked your memory. And so yeah, and that, that, that bit was running through my mind even before we'd even made a decision about that. So, um,  yeah.

Davina McCall

What was nice, what was nice for me. Sorry, what was nice for me was I did feel like you did understand how much that meant to me and my family because I'm the sole provider for my family, I mean, Michael and I aren't married. He's got his own life. He's got his own kids and everything. But I, and that I can't do my job without my memory. And I did feel like it wasn't your responsibility, you know, but I did know, I really honestly believed that you would do the very best you could do. 
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill

Yeah, yeah.

Davina McCall 

And I knew that. From the get-go

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

You did. You felt that.

Davina McCall 

Yeah, and that I it was up to me then to learn over the next weeks and months.

Mr Kevin O’Neill

Yeah

Davina McCall 

how to let go of the outcome. Honestly, otherwise I wouldn't be able to go to sleep on that, you know, on the table. 
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah. Yeah, you did.

Davina McCall 

But I did, and it was the most liberating thing.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

You did, and you were full of love on that day. I remember you saying. 

Davina McCall

Yeah, I was love, love, love all the way.
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill

Yeah, yeah, there's a special day.

Davina McCall 

Yeah
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill 

But yeah, I mean, I think I've said this before. I've said to Davina that you have to get, I mean there's a conscious interaction, but there's also a subconscious interaction and when when you're contemplating doing something that is really a very tight corner, you know, so you have to focus, you have to go into a mode where you, you're analysing this the pros and cons and a lot of people, a lot of surgeons would say no, no let's run away. But I knew at some stage you're going to have to face this and, you know, I thought long and hard about all the various approaches and not - there's not hundreds, but there there were options and we discussed that and  I felt the best thing was the way we did it and I explained that to you and why And you, kind of, with your mental level number of reasoning, understood that, right? So yeah.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

To go open rather than endoscopic as one of the... yeah 

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

To go open really, because look, the general premise is that you gotta get to this thing, even getting where this is... You gotta be really careful with the fornices, the memory circuits that it's sitting underneath. But getting there is fraught with hazards and, but my general premise and I - It is just to get there without going through normal brain, but to go through spaces if you can. Yeah. And this was the one which had the least amount of brain. And what we're going through would not really have any effect on you. I mean, unless we cut through the entire corpus callosum, made you disconnected, but that's that's not gonna happen, right?

Mr Kash Akhtar 

So, it's a real risk benefit all the way up.

Mr Kevin O'Neill

She made it easy for me. She behaved herself. The anatomy would be. It was, as I said to Michael, it was a kind of a textbook operation. It was just, it was meant to be.
 

Mr Kash Akhtar 

You have a compliant brain.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

so you've tackled huge challenges in your personal professional life when you have a  serious health issue like this, how does that compare?

Davina McCall 

God, I did a lot of. Work on myself. I mean I always know when -I can't say that word - but whatever hits the fan I have to just dig deep like it's happened a lot in my life before with loads of different things, and if I dig deep enough, I can find a way through it. And I am very grateful for being relatively resilient when life chucks me a curve ball. It's actually been quite helpful to me because over the last two years, I think I was all my life quite a control freak, which has done me quite well. It's done me well in my career and making sure that, you know, I did jobs that I liked and, but actually, in my life, I don't think being a control freak is very helpful about, with regards to your kids or with regards to your relationships or... And actually trying to just let go of it is a very helpful thing to do. But I thought, how do I let go of somebody being in my brain and me having an operation that I know is very difficult to do; not that many people have done them. It's hard to get to, the substance inside the cyst might be hard and not so, you know, there's so much to. Let go of. I thought, how do I learn how to let go? So, I spent two years learning how to let go and there was a lot of self-reflection, a lot of looking at where not letting go gets me. A lot of learning how to trust other people and what they do. I went to see a hypnotist. 

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Right.

Davina McCall 

A very good friend of mine, Charles Montague, is a hypnotist, and he'd retired. But he hypnotised me 7-8 years ago so I could go in one of those minute submarines to 1000 metres under the sea for a TV show called Life at the Extreme. And we were doing a one called Life at the Extreme: Deep as I went down in the submarine, he had hypnotised me to every metre we went the more excited I got. By the time we got to 1000 metres under the sea. I couldn't stand up. There was no loo. Took us 40 minutes to get down. It was like madness. Completely black. 
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Wow, scary.
 
Davina McCall 

Like you put on the lights, and all these neon creatures come out of the dark. I mean, it's completely mad. They saw an animal that they'd only ever seen once before, dead inside a spermwhale’s stomach. And we saw one alive, right. It was incredible. But I loved every second of it, thanks to Charles Montague. So I went back to see him, and I said, look, I know you're retired. Is there any way... this is happening to me. I hadn't told another soul. Could you help me? And he said yes, absolutely. He hypnotised me. He recorded it, and he gave me this recording. And he said when you walk into the operating theatre, you're going to look around. And you're going to look at everybody and you're going to think; there is Team Davina, 
 
Mr Kevin O’Neill 

Yeah

Davina McCall 

they are all here to help you, to support you. They are the best at what they do. The cleaners that, like, the cooks at the Cleveland, all the operating that, everybody is brilliant, and they are going to take great care of you, and you can just go to sleep and just let go. And it helped me so much.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah. 

Davina McCall 

And it helped me so much. And I listened to it almost every night up until the Op. And I did realise that if I stress, you stress, and I don't want you stressed. Like I want you to feel completely relaxed.

Mr Kevin O'Neill

It's always a two-way thing. And, and what you're describing as perception, isn't it? What, you know, you, If your perception is wrong, the outcome can be wrong. Your perception can change the outcome and

Davina McCall 

Relaxed. Exactly.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

We know how powerful the placebo effect can be, for instance. 
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

There's so much power of, you know, positive thinking on this.

Mr Kevin O’Neill

Yeah. Now I'm a total believer and that's why I like to make a connection with that because I need to understand their side of it and how to attack that because I have to... And I'm glad that I've been backed up by your hypnotist, you know, I have to instil positive thoughts and I have to do the same for myself. You know, I told you, you're, you remember I told Michael. I was, I had to almost go through my own conditioning, especially for you because of all the potential implications. And luckily, you know, it was all like it all meant to be. Luckily I had a holiday just before, so I went to Venice for my birthday. It was just after my birthday that I did your operation and, uh, I was getting in the right frame of mind and I had no choice and I had to do this operation. I had to get myself into the frame of mind to do it. So part of that is meditation, but it's also convincing yourself that I have to convince myself I think I can do it and everything's going to be fine and that I've got a team Davina around me. Yeah. So it's very similar to what you've described. And then I had a funny I'm quite spiritual, and I admit that on  this podcast. 

Davina McCall 

So am I. Just so you don't feel alone, Kevin.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

And I had. This - actually got it in my wallet- I was in St Mark’s Square. It was on my birthday and I dropped my glasses on the floor. It was completely clear for when I looked down and my glasses are sitting on this card. And. It was like I was. I was actually praying to Holy Mary about this and she answered my prayer and it went, I mean, I mean people are going to think I'm nuts. 

Davina McCall

I don’t
 
Kevin O’Neill

but it was I I took that as a sign the first time I've admitted that. But anyway, so that, you know, for everybody, they got their own comforts and stuff that gave me, like, you know, because the placebo effect is, is a very powerful thing, you know, up to 60% of - 30 to 60%. For me, that was my belief. So it's a belief system. So I believe that everything was going to be fine and it was and it makes a huge difference.

Davina McCall 

I was just going to say as a patient something else that did help me was trying to put my life in order so that if it didn't go right, everything would still be alright.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Because that was one thing that I was thinking. You’ve struck me as someone who likes to be in control and.

Davina McCall

Still, even though I let go of control. Yeah, I'm still in control.

Mr Kevin O’Neill

Yeah, you’re supposed to [laughs] Total control

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yeah and the thing is and then there comes a point where... You know I've- So, I've done thousands of operations, but I've never had one and I can't and I can't even visualise what it would be like to be: I'm just here. You do what you need to and letting go, so.

Davina McCall 

I think as a mother I needed to make sure that my kids, you know, so I did a will again, I did a new will and obviously.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

She didn't put me in it, by the way 

Davina McCall 

No, but you'll be in the next one 

[Mr Kevin O’Neill and Mr Kash Akhtar laugh]

and that I needed to make sure that, you know, Michael and the kids would be all right together and his, you know, like just to make sure everything was in place that if I didn't make. It. Everyone would be fine, but more importantly than that than the will much more importantly than the will. I really examined each of my children and their personalities and where they were at in their lives, and I thought to myself. Would they be OK without me and the resounding answer for all of them was yes. Look, they'd miss me. Of course they'd miss me, but. I am so proud of those kids and I just, everything has changed after going through all of this, letting go of the outcome, thinking about my children. And would they be alright if I wasn't here anymore and it really has made me stop fearing death in the way that I did before this operation. I have accepted that. We're all going to die. And at some point I'll die. But my kids will be fine.

Mr Kevin O'Neill

It's kind of been a forced change that has made you very reflective, hasn't it? 

Davina McCall

Yes.

Mr Kevin O'Neill

And kind of in your mind you've come potentially close to death and accepted that. 

Davina McCall 

Yes. And actually
 
Mr Kevin O’Neill 

And that's a big milestone. 

Davina McCall 

Yes. And that actually I met someone the other day who was talking to me and she burst into tears. She said I'm so scared of dying. And I said we need to talk. Cause I can help you with that.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

But you know, knowing that your children, and having that confidence, are gonna be OK is a huge credit to the way that you've brought them up. You know, cause means that you've it's instilled all the things in that they need to be self-sufficient and to be able to cope.

Davina McCall 

I mean, I guess it's like it takes a village. So you know, obviously they have their dad as well and Michael, their stepdad who’s also amazing. And you know my mum, Gabby, who's amazing. So we all...but I am very proud of them. Yeah. I mean, I don't want to take all the credit, but they are good kids, they really are.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Fantastic. Kevin, when you let's talk about the consent process. When you're consenting someone for surgery like this, there's the technical aspect of consent: I'm going to do this. You. It will bleed. There's a risk of infection. There's a risk of a, you know, all the bits that you will go through. How does, what is your consent process like and perhaps Davina has some thoughts on this. Are you quite matter of fact, this is what the operation is. This is what going wrong or do you do some sort of emotional preparation for patients as well?

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah, I think that's important. I think you have to frame it right and you have to frame it slightly differently. Although you say, you have to say the consistent same things that the known risks, you know you have to. That as a medical legal document you have to go through even detailed almost percentage wise you have. So there's an obligation to go through the cons as well as the pros. but I always emphasise that we're not going to be we wouldn't be doing this unless there was a big pro. so I do tend to emphasise the positive and invariably the positive happens, but you know. it's this, that each consent is specific for each condition and to a certain extent each patient. So I don't know. How did you find my consent process, Davina, I mean I

Davina McCall 

I don't know if you remember, but when Michael and I came to visit you in your office and I went, I went. Can we not? Can you? Can you not tell me the dangers and you went no. I've gotta tell you cause I was like thinking. Look, I've come to terms with it. I know it might not work out. I'd really rather just not hear how it might not work out. You were like, I really would love to do that, but I have to tell you like,  
 
Mr Kevin O’Neill 
 Yeah [laughs]

Davina McCall 

it's law. I was like, OK, carry on. And then there was quite another funny thing, because afterwards it was like, have you got any other questions? I was like. Can I keep my nail varnish on?

[All laugh]

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah.

Davina McCall 

It's like, you're having brain surgery and this is what you care about. Yeah, that was very funny.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah, these are important things.

Davina McCall 

Yeah, these are these are important things.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah, but the consent. Yeah, I suppose the consent. I think you have you have to give  that so the patient... it's all about, basically, it's about a medicolegal disclaimer, but it's all about managing your expectations as well. And for me, it's about framing it on an individual basis, but with consistent core of information, so.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

And then outlining the what recovery looks like and yeah, and the timelines

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Which is gonna be a range of things, you know, like for, for this operation, it could be anything from death to complete -well, not completely unscathed - recovery to normality very quickly. But invariably it's some somewhere in between and I have to say, although you went through what you went through, you know, and it was, it was quite a big deal. You are like top Echelon outcome, definitely so and that's down to your preparation, your positivity and your tenacious nature, you know. I think we were talking about your challenges earlier and you've prepared for this, you've got through it and you've dealt with it. But much better than most people. I have to say. Yeah.

Davina McCall 

What’s been interesting is the extracurricular stuff that I think is worth you talking to patients about. I mean, you did actually talk about afterwards and stuff that you can do. But for me getting into nature was absolutely invaluable.
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah.

Davina McCall 

And twice a day, I would try to go for a little walk. I got this really kind of weird deja vu thing. Quite a lot at the beginning and occasionally I get it now where I walk around thecorner and I think I've just I've been around this corner and then I realised that no, I haven't. It's just a deja vu thing. So being with nature was really important and playing the piano. But this nonverbal reasoning thing. Music is part of nonverbal reasoning and I've played the piano lot when I was a kid but I played classical. You know, and I wanted to play pop songs, but I don't know. Trying to play chords and pop songs after you've learned classical piano sounds silly because it sounds it's a bit like driving an automatic car after you've driven a stick shift. Like it's much easier, but it's not easier because you're used to all this complicated stuff and suddenly you're like, what? Just this and then kind of that and everything. So I I decided I was going to downloaded an app and I've learned like chord sequences and I'm learning various chords and then they reward you with a pop song.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Right.

Davina McCall 

And so I did 10 to 20 minutes every day of piano practise and I feel like that really helped me.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

It was funny when you mentioned piano, I wasn't sure where you were going. I thought you gonna say. I couldn't play. Before then, I could after. 

[All laugh]

Davina McCall 

Yeah. Suddenly I was a concert pianist

Mr Kevin O'Neill

I always ask my patients.

Davina McCall

Well, I wish that happened. Do you know what was really funny? Because I had no idea. How mad I would be when I came round from the anaesthetic and before I had the operation I had had this idea that when I came round from the operation, I would just speak with a French accent or just I speak fluent French 

Mr Kash Akhtar

Yeah, you hear stories of this, don't you? 
 
Mr Kevin O’Neill 

Yeah. Yeah.

Davina McCall 

so that I would just go [imitates French Accent] ‘Allo Michael, Ca va? Est-ce que tu va bien. C’est genial. 
 
Mr Kash Akhtar 

Bouf

Davina McCall 

I mean, the idea I didn't know what country I was in. I thought I still had to have an operation tomorrow. I was mad. So, the idea of me trying to fake anything with Michael and make a joke, you know that I'd change languages or something? 
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah, you didn't need to. Yeah.

Davina McCall

No, he was already worried enough as it was like you have like you've gone completely bonkers.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yeah
 
Mr Kevin O’Neill 

Yeah

Davina McCall 
 I think that's another thing that that nobody knows where you're going to be at. But for days I just, I was trying to figure out what country I was in. I turned into somebody. I mean, I must have sounded a bit like Nigel Farage because everybody that walked in, I'd go. Where are you from? If I heard an accent.  

[Mr Kash Akhtar and Mr Kevin O’Neill laugh]
 
If I had an accent, I'd go where are you from? Because I'm trying to figure out what country I'm in.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

And there's a lot in healthcare.

Davina McCall 

I saw I saw the word Cleveland Clinic and I thought, am I in America, but then somebody else would walk in with a different accent. And I'm like, where's your accent? Where are you from? Or the whole time? And then somebody American came and I went. I said, what's your name then? She said Sydney. Well, that fried my brain. I was like, what? Sydney from America? What? And I'm at the Cleveland Clinic. Where am I? And then I'd say to Michael, my partner. Listen, I'm feeling great but we’ve just got to get back from America ‘cause I've got to have an operation tomorrow. And he’d go, you've had the operation. I go. I haven't had the operation. I got to have it tomorrow and he go. No, he'd and then he'd take my hand, and he'd go like that [places her hand on head] on the on the bandage and I go and I'd start crying so hard. I've had the operation. It was a success. And then 10 minutes later

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah. Yeah.
 
Davina McCall 

same thing again. I was driving him.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

So you were really quite discombobulated.

Davina McCall 

Yeah, it was exhausting.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Oh, yeah. She was switched off. I mean, although the fornaces were intact, you know, we let a lot of air in. 
 
Davina McCall 

Oh, it was the air, wasn't it?
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill 

And even though you wash saline everything, you know your brain pipe -we see this in the in people have had head trauma and they've had a craniotomy for decompression that gets left out for some time. They get this Syndrome of Trephined,  where the brain actually has to be supported and buoyant in the CSF to function. So if it's kind of collapsed under its own weight, it switches off and you see, you see people, something at the cranium reconstructed, and they wake up and the brain switches back on again. And
 
Davina McCall 

Wow

Mr Kevin O’Neill 

and in Davina's case your, you know, your brain shifted a little bit because all the fluid had gone and certainly the cyst had gone. And so it's not that it's not functional, it's just switched off temporarily until and then as that air dissolved, you reemerged again. But you know, it was, it was. It was frightening for Michael, you were kind of just
 
Davina McCall 

I was fine. I was fine. 

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

you were fine.

Davina McCall 

I was just discombobulated. I didn't understand. Yeah.
 
Mr Kevin O’Neill 

Frightening for me a little bit, because... that's why we scanned you twice in the first 48. Hours but everything. Yeah.

Davina McCall

I think Michael was frightened because he sensed you were worried.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah. I'm –

Davina McCall 
 He was like he said, you said should be 
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Should be?

Davina McCall 

and he was like, he used the word should for the first time.
 
[Mr Kevin O’Neill and Mr Kash Akhtar laugh]

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Well, you know, you know, I had great faith. But you know, you have to look at what's in front of you and

Davina McCall 

Yeah, you don't know.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

And, you know, 
 
Mr Kash Akhtar 

Brain surgery is not a science.
  
Mr Kevin O’Neill 

It's not. I don't think medicine is a pure science. I mean, there's a lot of mystery about it and we - I think we're missing a trick on many things. But I think with you,  I'd in the back of my mind I knew you were going to be fine. And I I eventually conveyed that to Michael and

Davina McCall 

What was interesting was. I felt that I could feel minute improvements. They were so small but I could feel them every day. I felt I was coming back, not disappearing. So I’d keep saying to people I'm coming back, I feel great today. Maybe like you're exactly the same as yesterday, but I'd felt a little. A little improvement.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah.

Davina McCall

But, so, did you say to Michael before we left the hospital: Look, she's gonna be, she will make a recovery.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah, I did. But you know, because the operation went so well. And then when you woke up, you know, with this deficit that brings in an uncertainty. So that's when I said, ‘should’, because I'm not, I'm hedging my bets, but I have to be honest.

Davina McCall 

You gotta be honest, right? Yeah.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah.

Mr Kash Akhtar

How long did the operation take?

Mr Kevin O'Neill

It didn't take five hours, it took less than five hours, but it's just going it's just the  access and coming out again and going to the MRI scan, all that sort of stuff takes time. So it was about three, possibly four hours.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Just out of interest of the - do you listen to music when you're operating.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

[laughs] I do. I do. I do actually.

Mr Kash Akhtar

Lot of surgeons, you, yeah.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

I do. I mean, I I find it very  -

Davina McCall 

What kind of music do you like? Have you got an operating playlist? 
 
Mr Kevin O’Neill 

actually no I don't
 
Davina McCall 

Send it to me.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

but I I've got anaesthetists that have their playlists, and there's one or two that I really. Like because they've got good playlists. I like working with them. But I tend to just go with the mood on the day. So like the other day I was listening to 80s. I do tend to hop back to the 80s and 70s and I did a podcast recently and I mentioned ABBA and it was all over the, you know, the news.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yeah. I think a lot of patients are quite surprised to hear that surgeons operating music, especially doing something
  
Davina McCall

Oh, I think it's relaxing.
 
Mr Kash Akhtar 

as meticulous as brain surgery.

Davina McCall 

Well, it's again, that's a non verbal reasoning thing. It's logic. Music is something that helps you just forget about everything else, not about the operation. But I know it. It doesn't surprise me at all that I know exactly why and for me, music is, well firstly, Meditative. 
 
Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yeah
 
Davina McCall 

So when I'm listening to music, I'm not thinking about other things. I'm in the moment a lot more. And secondly, it is a mood-altering drug.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yeah

Davina McCall 

and can make you feel very positive and and I think you need, yeah. 
 
Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yeah, yeah. As long as your not listening to The Smiths or something.

Davina McCall 

Yeah or Leonard Cohen.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yeah [laughs]
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah, it definitely sets the moods. I remember my old boss Henry Marsh, who he had sort of opening mid operation and closing music. 
 
Mr Kash Akhtar 

Right
 
Mr Kevin O’Neill

and closing music will often be like really fast-paced, like Chuck Berry or something like that, you know and.
 
Mr Kash Akhtar 

Speed you up
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill 

And It worked, yeah.

Mr Kash Akhtar

No, I love operating to music. I couldn't imagine it without it. I hate hearing the beeps of the machines.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah, its, yeah it’s definitely calming.

Davina McCall 

Can I? I I'd like to say something if that's alright about afterwards. About what a short term memory, 

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Please.

Davina McCall 

the effect that it could have on your relationship because Mike, you know what me and Michael are like? Like I am nuts about Michael. Yes, and.

[Mr Kevin O’Neill laughs]

And he and I are soul mates like we get on so extraordinarily well. But losing your short term memory is a bit like having Alzheimer's in reverse. And my dad died from Alzheimer's, and my grandmother had vascular dementia from a stroke and I looked after my granny for as long as I could until she went into a home and my dad was looked after brilliantly by my step mum. So I have really very strong kind of associations with that. And I remember thinking while I was, I had no short term memory. God, this is. This is really hard, but at least I can feel the little gains every day like I know I'm going in the other direction and thank God for that. But the effect that it had on my relationship with the man I loved the most was so profound. Like I felt, I felt like it could have split us up, I felt. I felt so distant from him. And I I didn't know how to get there to him again. And I could. I kept trying to tell him that I was getting better, but it was hard for him to keep the faith. It felt like it was going on for a long time. And I think he was still worried that I might never come back and I was, as you know, when I was in the hospital, it was quite frustrating me going over the same thing again and again and again. And when I went home, it was still [Mr Akhtar passes her tissue box] Thank you. I'm still annoying. And I became, you know, when you lose a sense, I feel like my memory was a sense of some sort. I lost a sense. But I became acutely brilliant at reading faces.

Mr Kevin O’Neill 

Hmm.

Davina McCall 

And I saw a couple of expressions on his face that I'd never seen before, which was annoyance or frustration and.

Mr Kevin O’Neill 

Hmm.

Davina McCall 

I completely understand that now you know. And I he wasn't openly looking like that, but I just caught a flicker of an eye or a kind of like a, God, that kind of impatience or just oh,  like when is this going to get better? And I kind of need to get away. For me and What is really worth telling people or warning people is that that might happen, that it can have an effect on your relationship and to remember that, you know, God willing, they will come back if they are going to come back. You know, I know that sometimes you know that they're not. 

Mr Kevin O’Neill 

Yeah.

Davina McCall 

Not but if, they are, or if they should come back. You know, stick with it because. Unlike another type of injury where they are changed for good, I I always think about James Cracknell and Beverly Turner like Beverly Turner was a friend of mine and James did change and

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah.

Davina McCall 

He. You know, changed for good and it was difficult for them to continue. I was coming back, but it was like I wasn't coming back quick enough. I mean, I was. And he he, you know, he didn't leave and and actually there was an amazing moment where I did. I did a podcast with Stephen Bartlett about
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill 

I remember that. Yeah.

Davina McCall 

My recovery and everything. And after that I thought I need to talk to somebody. And I went back and spoke to my counsellor that I've used, you know, for the last six years, on and off, you know, when I needed her and she was absolutely brilliant and she said, what are you doing? Stop worrying about Michael.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah.

Davina McCall 

You can't do anything about how he's feeling about you. You can't change how he's feeling about you. You have no control over him or anything. But she said the one thing you have got control over and you've forgotten this and I think you know it. Now I'm saying it is you.
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah.

Davina McCall

And I was like, Oh my God. Like, I've just got to do what I need to do for me to get better. Yeah. And stop, you know, 
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Worring about other people

Davina McCall 

Stop worrying about other people and if it's meant to be, he will. He will follow, you know, like, it will be fine. Focus on your recovery and.
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Don't worry about the journey, yeah.

Davina McCall 

I did that. And a week later, Michael looks at me and he says thank you, I said what for? And he said thank you for talking to Kitty because you are different. Like I can just sense it you are, you've changed, but in a in a good way. And I was like, have I? Like I couldn't really understand why, but actually it was just because I'd stopped being so looking at him. Is he on the phone? Does he still love me? I know that I'm not that person.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

No.

Davina McCall 

I have never been that person, so that's where he was kind of freaked out cause I was behaving weird 

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah, yeah.

Davina McCall 

and there's something about that. Like if somebody could have explained that this is going to be a very difficult journey and to try and maybe get some counselling. 
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill

Yeah
 
Davina McCall 

somewhere to help you navigate your way through it. I needed one session.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah

Davina McCall 

It was, that was it, she said: Stop concentrating on him. Concentrate on yourself and get yourself better.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

It's great that you identified that and and I mean it must have. It meant that you were resurfacing and you you gained insight again, yeah.

Davina McCall

Yes, that I had the ability to do that, yes, I guess so. I think being on Stephens Podcast and completely losing it.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

That, yeah, I remember that podcast. I watched it. And the one thing he said which quite pertinent was that when you're in love with somebody and you, you two are clearly in love and very close. They're day day in, day out and. You've you it's. You're falling in love with somebody's memories and memories of each other. 
 
Davina McCall 

Yes, yes. yes. Hmm.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

When your memories gone, there's a... the paranoia does set in, cause you you're trying to fill in the gaps and you and you and uncertainty just creeps in, doesn't it? So it's quite, I mean, when you, when you think about it, It all makes sense doesn't it. But you're definitely better now. That's the main thing. And you've sought all the proper attention and advice, so.

Davina McCall

But I think that's a good message to pass on. Like, don't be afraid to get counselling. This is big.

Mr Kash Akhtar

Yeah, yeah. And  do you, you must work with psychologists as part of your practise in an MDT.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

We do. They're they're actually a rare breed, so they're quite hard to, I mean,
 
Davina McCall 

Oh, are they?
 
Mr Kevin O’Neill

Luckily the yeah, I mean, luckily at Cleveland, they're it's such a great place. You know, they've got such facility. We had that ability to test you and get you in and we could have extended that but you know, what they don't have is that that kind of specialist counselling, which is usually kind of outside of the facility and outsource and for you to identify yourself. I mean, as a neurosurgeon, it's very difficult just to look at all of the available adjuncts to your recovery. Because we're we're focused on that big episode.

Davina McCall 

Yes, of course.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

And, um, but thank God that you, you did that. And that was a vital piece of your recovery.

Davina McCall 

I think what's interesting is I wouldn't expect you guys to sort all that out, but I think it's like flagging up that you might need at in the future and you might want to source someone that could help you.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, sending you down to a psychometric psychology route and that that that opens the doors. And so, you know, there are various grades of or avenues that might be specific to your particular problem. So, you know, the idea is that what they, what they do in that test is screen where your deficiency are, deficiencies are and either deal with it themselves, give you exercises. Send you to an expert in that area that can kind of hold you for a bit. But thank God for patients like you who, you know, you take charge of your own care, because that's... people like you and I see different walks of life and the way that people react to their illness and the people that do take charge of their own, have a responsibility for their own, do the that they  always do the best, yeah.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

So as surgeons, we call them winners and the thing is, and the thing you're always taught in your training is pick the winners. 
 
Mr Kevin O’Neill 

Yeah. 
 
Mr Kash Akhtar 

I mean sometimes you don’t have a choice. 

Davina McCall

Can I tell you something? Quite lovely. 
 
Mr Kevin O’Neill

Yeah 
 
Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yeah
  
Davina McCall 

I went to narcotics anonymous to get clean from drugs in when I was 24. And they say stick with the winners in a narcotics anonymous meeting. People who are clean and have got lots of experience, they say stick with the winners. Yeah, isn't that funny?

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yeah. Yeah, says the things followed through and how long were you in hospital for? out of interest.

Davina McCall 

8-9 days I stayed for an extra night, didn't I?

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah, it's it seemed like a long time. Oh, my God, it's.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

I'm glad for Kevin.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Every day, In and out of, Yeah. No, it seemed like a long time, but it was actually not that long, really. It it's just that you know that your problem was was profound in that you. Know. You were dependent, you know you, you don't remember how dependent you are. 

Davina McCall 

I was vulnerable, wasn’t I?

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah. Yeah. Vulnerable. You couldn't go home, but you could- You couldn’t be left on your own in the first few days. 

Davina McCall 

No. 
 

Mr Kevin O'Neill

But then as you surfaced, it became evident that you were going in the right direction and we let you, we had a, you know, we have a little discharge meeting and let you go home with some support. And your mum was at home.

Davina McCakk

So funny. She was, she's funny. And I I walked through the door and my son Chester, who's 18, he came downstairs and he went ‘all right’ and I went and I went, yeah hi. And he went, ‘didn't know it was that serious’.
 
 [All laughing]

Davina McCall

I thought I'd actually done a quite a good job there like I guess with my planning I should have maybe told him how serious it was, just in case it had gone wrong. I hadn't. 
 
Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yeah, yeah. You'd underplayed it.

Davina McCall 

I hadn’t really, I hadn't really informed him enough of what could happen, but it didn't happen, so I was pleased. I underplayed it but 

Mr Kash Akhtar 

But, also, teenage boys, right?

Davina McCall 

Yeah, it really made me laugh. Like oh God, it's actually quite serious, wasn't it? Was like, yeah, it was quite mad. I mean, the number of people who came out of the woodwork, firstly, if anybody's listening, that's not part of the Cleveland Clinic and that doesn't know this. What is really important to say is that everybody that has something in their brain - a cyst or tumour and they call cysts as you pointed out before and I was a bit like what? It's a tumour or is it a cyst? What? But they do call collared cysts or any kind of cyst, like a tumour as well.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Sure. It’s an abnormal growth. Yes. Your tumour, yeah.

Davina McCall 

For, for. For anybody that's had that, I think everybody kind of thinks, oh, yeah, my friend had the same thing. It's like, no, it's not the same thing because if it was a centimetre to the right, it would bring a whole different host of problems. And if it was a centimetre to the. It would be another if it's at the back by your brain stem, completely different frontal lobe, completely different. 

Mr Kash Akhtar 

And the and the other fallacy

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah. So totally right.
 
Davina McCall

It's all, but everybody goes. Oh, it's my friend had a brain tumour too. It's the same sort of thing. You think? 
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill 

You’re in the same sort of club

Davina McCall 

No. Not at all. You know, my girlfriend that had to read a book for four hours where she was operated on. That's crazy. Like, it's completely different.

Mr Kash Akhtar

And the other fallacy is that just because something is benign doesn't mean that it's harmless.

Davina McCall 

Yes, yes. 
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill 

That's true.

Davina McCall

I think that was a big that was probably the most gratitude I got from people from people was from people with benign brain tumours.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yeah, just making everyone else aware. 
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill 

That's true.
 
Mr Kash Akhtar 

Understand the significance

Davina McCall 

Umm. And I think the other thing that it's made me immensely grateful for is that I had a tumour that was accessible. I've met people that have got inaccessible,
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Uncurable
 
Davina McCall 

Inaccessible and therefore incurable. Yeah. Yeah, like, yeah. And it could. It could end when? Oh my God. Yeah. So,  Kevin, I went to go and have the final MRI in May and I went in and went up to the 4th floor. Where I'd had my operation and I would, I didn't go into the ward or anything, but I stood there. It was like, really cathartic for me. Then I went down to the MRI. I had the scan and I'm in the taxi on my own. I've done photographs of myself. Outside the Cleveland Clinic, crying like this is the end. I hope and I get into the taxi and I go to Charing Cross train station and I get a call from Kevin in the taxi and he says I've had a look at the scans. They look absolutely great. I really wanted to tell you before you know, without having to wait days for it or whatever that it looks like you've never had an operation that looks amazing. You're done. Like, that's it. And I got to the train station and I was like, looking around. I was like someone seeing me, like someone recognised me. I'm desperate for just to have someone or talk to someone. I need to.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

A ticket inspector.

Davina McCall 

Only got on the train, really busy train sitting there, looking at, eyeballing people, thinking, talk to me, talk to me. Nobody talked to me. Nobody talked to me. So I got to Tunbridge Wells and I thought  
 
Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yeah. There's a tissue here.
 
Davina McCall 

Thank you. I thought please, Like someone at the train station. Anyway, I walk out of Tunbridge Wells train station and I hear ‘Davina?’ And my great friend Kirsty was on the train. She was a mum of one of my daughter’s friends and.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

It's it's cool, yeah.

Davina McCall 

She says hey and I've let rip Like, I was howling like a banshee, and she was like, are you OK? Oh my God. Are you? Are you alright? What's? And I was like, I was trying, you know, when I get hysterical and I can't stop laughing and crying, laughing.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah, you were like that on your post op, yeah.

Davina McCall

And I was just. Looking at her going. I've had the MRI. It's gone. It's gone. Yeah, she's like, it's gone? I was like, yes, it's not coming back. I was like, like I've got goosebumps talking about it now. I can't believe and.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah.

Davina McCall 

We were laughing so hard, I said. I was so desperate. The universe sent you to me. I was so desperate to see someone or to speak to someone or for somebody to talk to.
 
Mr Kevin O’Neill 

Yeah

Davina McCall 

Me and not only is it someone to talk to me, but it's a friend. 
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill

Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah.

Davina McCall 

Ohh God, it was so. It was so mega. It was the best moment ever. Thank you, Kevin.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah, it was. It was a pretty good moment for me. So, but the I think everybody had a bit of trepidation looking at that scan. Yeah, but I knew. I knew when you were coming and I had a quick peek and I, yes.

Davina McCall 

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
 
[Mr Kevin O’Neill and Mr Kash Akhtar laugh]

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

But it looked good. I asked you and you. You've got two photographs now, before and after you, and they are on your mantelpiece or whatever. Yeah, yeah.

Davina McCall 

Yeah, I have. And my partner gave me a picture of my brain with the colloid cyst in it for Christmas, and I know that sounds weird, but 
 
Mr Kash Akhtar 

Right. It's not the first thing I’d of done.

Davina McCall 
and he's going to get a picture with it not there anymore and we are gonna put them next to eachother.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Fantastic. Davina, what was your experience of Cleveland Clinic London?

Davina McCall

Well firstly I just want to say that the 4th floor, everybody, like everyone was mega. Everybody was brilliant, so lovely. The receptionist. They saw me at my most vulnerable, my most mad. All the young doctors. Obviously you, Kevin, you know how I feel about you. I keep banging on about it 
 
Mr Kevin O’Neill 

Yeah
 
Davina McCall 

and I will do forever. But ev- the cleaning staff like everybody was lovely, so there's that. Secondly, there's something really nice about the cleanliness: the crispness. Do you understand what I mean? 

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've just come from there. And said yeah. White.

Davina McCall 

It's crisp. The Cleveland Clinic. It's like it's white but I love that. Yeah, it feels clean. It feels safe.

Mr Kevin O’Neill 

Yeah.

Davina McCall 

It feels quiet. It feels, um,  serious. Just the right level of seriousness. It felt very, very, very safe to me.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

That's wonderful to hear.

Davina McCall 

And. It...also can I just talk about the food.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yeah, by all means. I've never tried it.

Davina McCall 

The food at the Cleveland Clinic. I can't remember his name. I've got his name in my bag somewhere because I kept it because he was the most... the head chef at the Cleveland Clinic is

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Oh really?

Davina McCall

next level. The food was better than anything I've eaten in any restaurant. It’s like The Cleveland Clinic is worth booking into just for the food.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Really. We might. We should start doing that then.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yeah.... we should get admitted there, could get a room for the night?

Davina McCall 

It was so good as a patient. Honestly, honestly, amazing next level. Yes, so so good. But my entire experience from start to finish even now to the fact that I mean, I would just come through the front door, but people were always trying to offer me like if you wanna go through the back door if you wanna kind of we can sneak you out whatever it can be more that. The guys on the door are always so lovely. I've had tests there. I've seen various doctors that it is an amazing building, full of absolutely lovely people doing incredible jobs and I couldn't... The reason why I'm sat here is because I couldn't be more satisfied in every way. And I want to say this isn't a sponsorship thing. You haven't paid me. I've got anything for free except for my life. 
 
Mr Kash Akhtar 

They're not even paying me.

Davina McCall 

You know, the good old good old private healthcare sorted that out. Yeah, but I'm doing it because,I love you, Kevin, for starters, 
 
Mr Kevin O’Neill 

Aw

Davina McCall

but I'm immensely grateful and, but I was. I'm also immensely grateful to everybody who took care of me. To Sydney, To Alex, like to everybody. Thank you. You know, I mean, I'm going to be best friends. You remember Sydney? 
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah

Davina McCall 

So, me and Sydney going to be best friends forever.  However, at some point she's going back to America or something, but, you know what we will be friends forever. 
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah
 
Davina McCall 

I love that girl. I've told her I'm gonna be godmother to her first child. 
 
Mr Kevin O’Neill 

Oh, really?

Davina McCall 

Yeah, whether she likes it or not.
 
[Mr Kash Akhtar laughs]

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

I think it's, I mean it's great to. I mean I have to expound your what you've said the whole thing is about teamwork there. It's very supportive environment it is and it's a very safe enough. It's very facilitative environment for a doctor to say that who's seen the evolution of the health service and its various guises, both NHS and particularly NHS, Being stretched to the extent where there are holes forming every. Say it's just like you say it's, it's  a pleasure to go to the Cleveland Clinic. And yeah, feel like it used to be. Yeah. Yeah.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

I was saying off camera. Well, like I send you off before we started recording it that it's my happy place. Yeah. And then as I walk the door, I just feel my blood pressure drop because I know that.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

I'm supported as a surgeon to the best, give the best possible care to the patient, yeah.

Davina McCall 

Wow, that's amazing.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

And I feel like people listen to you and the metrics that they use is that, you know, the the management virus hasn't set in like it has in the NHS, the metrics they then they say this publicly, it's not about you know how much you perform in terms of money you bring, it's about the many things and it's about quality of care. It's about your patients experience and all that stuff. So really important stuff for me. And so yeah, and I find that, you know, you can talk to the President, you can talk to the Chief of service as chief of staff, you know, very humanly and they will listen to you. Yeah, I like it. Yeah.

Davina McCall 

I’m not surprised.
 
Mr Kash Akhtar 

Davina, you, you've called this a new beginning. What does life look like for you now? How has it changed you this experience?

Davina McCall 

It's quite, it’s changed me quite a lot. I want to live. I want to live to the absolute max and not waste a second and that doesn't mean doing things all day every day. It also means walking in nature. I mean, I've started hugging trees. I look up in the forest. I look at the sky. When the sun came out the first day I was crying. Non-stop because I'd had the operation in November. So when we had our first sort of really sunny day after that, I was like. The miracle of Sun and the warmth on my face. The smallest things. I've always been quite a grateful person. I think getting clean helped me feel super grateful to be alive. But this is like super-sized my gratitude. 1000 times. I've listened to a playlist my boyfriend made for me for the night before the operation, which was...I don't know if you've heard of somebody called Ram Dass, but it's he's like a spiritual I've sent you the playlist a, a spiritual kind of guru type man, and he's done a couple of playlists and John Hopkins, who's an amazing musician, has put the music to these. And then he put a Coldplay song at the beginning and the end. 
 
Mr Kash Akhtar 

Right
 
Davina McCall 

And I've listened to it every single day since the op. I cannot stand toxic people or relationships, so I will literally just go:You guys go sort this out.it's weird. It’s like something's happened to me and I'm just like, life's too short. 
 
Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yeah. 
 
Davina McCall 

Don't. Don't hang around someone if you don't like them. Like either get divorced or go to a relationship counselling. But you guys, you know, there's a... I would normally just kind of try and help, but now I'm like guys, seriously got to sort this out. I love the fact that your blood pressure goes down when you walk into work, it makes that made me really happy when you said that. So I have an understanding of that. I want to seek. Pleasant things in my life, rather than be a heat seeking missile for trouble, which I did for a long time, I don't want to do that anymore. And I would. I did feel a little bit like I'm still here. There's more to do. I'd like to help people more.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

It's almost like a new lease of life because you've almost made it come to terms that this could be it - probably isn't, but this could be. And now all of a sudden, gosh, I've got.

Davina McCall 

Yes. Yes.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

The runway ahead of me.

Davina McCall 

Yes. It's really nice.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

That's wonderful to hear. Kevin. What's it like seeing a patient thrive after something like this?
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill 

That's... that's what I work for. Really. I mean, that's the real reward. You know, it's funny thing to say. I don't. I don't think. I mean, there are many rewards in life, but. As I've said before, my modus operandi is when I'm operating and when I'm in front of the patient, that that's when I'm at the most ease and you know I I made a decision many years that I've got a really... this is what I this is my vocation. I knew it was my vocation from a very early age, but I've really got to make the most of it and enjoy it and get the best results. And when I see the best results, that's when I’m my happiest and it's a very personal spiritual thing we're talking about, you know, not having to put up with bad. Energy. It's about. Creating good energies surrounding yourself in the putting yourself in the right environment, surrounding yourself by the right people, the right team, and creating something really good. And that's. What I'm really proud of and you're an example of that, Davina. 

Davina McCall 

What's interesting is these are choices, right? That you can make. You can either put yourself, you don't.... You never have to stay in a toxic job or situation or relationship or anything, like, these are choices. Change is hard, but it's worth it because look how happy you guys are and.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah. What I identify with you is, is your, you know what, I look at you and I see this is like your ultimate challenge. But you've been through so many challenges in life. And look at you, you've come through it. And it's actually,  for me looking at you is such a great example and to help you through your latest challenge it isanother great job. It helps me. I mean I I'm I always say that that I'm always learning from my patient. It's always a two-way energy I'm always you know I'm. And I'm different with every single patient, because every single patient is different in their own right and.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

You almost mirror. There's an energy transference that happens.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah, yeah, yes, yeah, definitely and, so for me, especially living, it's been a very, very fulfilling experience from the energetic point of view 

Davina McCall 

Me too.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

and seeing, you know from somebody who is such an achiever, get through this and I've helped her. That's great for me. I feel very proud about that. Yeah. Yeah.

Davina McCall 

Win, win. Win for me. Win for you, A-ha.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah.
 
 [All laugh]
 
Mr Kash Akhtar 

Back there out there again.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

We've got we go to do a song or something together. Now that there's podcasts to, like, captain single.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yeah.

Davina McCall 

OK, OK, that's something else I did. I had singing lessons.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Oh fantastic. And you? Did you sing before?

Davina McCall 

I mean not really.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Right.

Davina McCall 

And that was really nice for me.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Great. Yeah, I read in the BBC article that you said you and Kevin and we're going to be friends for life now you can have dinner with your partners. 
 
Davina McCall 

We are already. We're already friends for life.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yeah. Yeah. I just wanna warn you. I went clubbing with Kevin as a junior doctor 20 years ago in Chelsea and I’m still not sure I’ve recovered. 
 
Mr Kevin O’Neill 

Wow

Davina McCall 

Yeah, you're coming clubbing with me in a couple of weeks, yeah.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah. Couple of weeks. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was trying to keep that secret.

Davina McCall 

With Eva and Michael, obviously, shhh.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

I don't remember that you have to recount that, maybe offline.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yeah. We were at Charing Cross.

Davina McCall 

Where did you go?

Mr Kash Akhtar 

It was a nightclub in Chelsea. I don't remember the name 

Davina McCall 

Bijoux.

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Bijoux. That is the one because we were at Charing Cross. I was an associate chair in Orthopaedics at the time, yeah.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Was I, was that setting a very bad example as usual. 

Mr Kash Akhtar 

You were impeccably. Mr Neil. What goes on in Bijoux stays there. 
 
[All laughing]

Mr Kash Akhtar

So, Davina, just around up, what advice would you give to someone who's been diagnosed with a brain tumour or has is just starting this kind of health journey, someone who's kind of scared or unsure?

Davina McCall

I mean, obviously I can only speak about a colloid. Cyst, cause obviously all brain tumours are so different 

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Yes.

Davina McCall 

and they all come with different problems and worries, but the colloid cyst for me. I had to sit down and think long and hard. Whether it was absolutely necessary and whether it was a good idea and with your help and support came to the decision that it was a good idea to get it removed. And almost in a funny kind of way. That was the really hard bit: making a decision whether to have brain surgery or not. Yeah, once I decided it was like, OK, what is going to enable me to get through it? So what you need to do is think what do you need to do for yourself to make you be able to walk into that room and lie down and be administered anaesthetic for this operation and be able to think? Whatever happens is fine. How can you learn to let go? What is the best way to enable you to be able to let go of the outcome. Who do you need to make sure we'll be fine? Where? Where do you have to go in your mindset? I spent a long time figuring out that I needed to make sure that the people that I love, if they were left behind and I didn't make it, that they would be OK. So, I had to find a way of what did that look like? Who did I need to speak to? I needed to learn to let go. And that was actually harder than I. Thought it would be [laughs]. Control freak here. I hadn't. I hadn't heard of Mel Robbins book yet at that point. Let them. 
 
Mr Kevin O'Neill 

Yeah, but she says that

Davina McCall 

But she is absolutely brilliant. You know, it's like, let them think what they think. Let them do what they do like, just let them. She's brilliant. But anyway, so that I had to find a way of doing. Letting go of the reins and

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

But I think you optimised your outcome as best you could,the process you went through.

Davina McCall 

And afterwards find a way of recovering as well.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

I mean there’s a lot of deicison making on the way.

Davina McCall 

So music, sauna. Yes.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

And you got to a point where you, you were convinced made the right decision and I was convinced it was the right thing. 
 
Davina McCall 

Yes. Yes.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

So we come, we came together on that. You know, I think when you're in that state of mind. And.. and you also had hypnosis you you've, I mean, I'm a great believer in mind over, but you you've created a very positive situation. You've almost created the outcome already is my view and I felt that I tangibly felt that. 

Davina McCall 

Hmm, that's nice to know.

Mr Kevin O’Neill 

Yeah. Yeah. And that's coming from you I mean. I had my own confidence about myself and my abilities and you. Obviously optimise your outcome by choosing the right surgery and clearly, 

[Mr Kash Akhtar laughs]

Mr Kash Akhtar 

Now, that's a neurosurgeon speaking. 
 
Davina McCall 

Yeah, but that's true.

Mr Kevin O’Neill 

but I think you know your but you, you know, I think the process you went through was was good all round. I mean for everybody, but particularly you because you're the subject, so yeah.

Davina McCall 

Thank you.
 
Mr Kash Akhtar 

It's a reminder that the best healthcare isn't just technical, it's personal. So, you've been listening to Exploring Health with Cleveland. In London, I'm Kash Akhtar and it's been a real pleasure to have Davina and Kevin with us today. Thank you so much for sharing so candidly. Both of you. 
 
Davina McCall 

Thanks, Kash. 
 
Mr Kash Akhtar 

I was expecting more tears. Kevin, I'm disappointed.

Mr Kevin O'Neill 

And I, well, I I left that to Davina. I knew she was gonna outdo me on that, so. [laughs].

Davina McCall 

That’s why I had these here [holds up tissues] I know I'm gonna go. [laughs]

Mr Kash Akhtar 

I was welling up. If you've been listening or watching and want to take charge of your health, please check out the links in the show notes for more information. If you found this conversation valuable then please don't forget to subscribe, leave a review and share it with someone who needs to hear this. Until next time. Thank you.