Reimagining The Future of Nursing Leadership

Podcast Transcript

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Hi, and welcome to Nurse Essentials, a Cleveland Clinic podcast where we discuss all things nursing, from patient care to advancing your career to navigating tough on-the-job issues. We're so glad you're here. I'm your host, Carol Pehotsky, Associate Chief Nursing Officer of Surgical Services Nursing.

Our topic for today is how we as nurses and nurse leaders should and must be bold moving forward. And in reflecting on today's topic, I've been thinking about the various names we are called as nurses. There have been times as a bedside nurse I was called an angel, but it wasn't because of bedside manner, it's because wearing all white and my post-surgical patients weren't exactly (laughs) sure where they were. Other times I've been called a friend, hopefully, a colleague, a mentor, maybe even a role model, and some less kindly names that I would not choose to repeat in front of this crowd perhaps. But I don't know that I've been ever called bold, and in this day and age of nursing, where the problems are just getting more complex and none of the answers are easy, how can we, each of us, find the courage to be bold? And how to encourage those around us to take bold steps to try something new?

I'm delighted to be joining you today for our first live recording at the 15th annual Cleveland Clinic Nursing Leadership Summit.

That's right. And I'm joined by four of our tremendously talented nurse leaders from across the organization who are out there doing bold things. Welcome, ladies, we're so happy to have you joining us to share some experiences with us. So first, I'm thrilled to introduce you to Dr. Barb Zinner. Barb's the chief nursing officer at Cleveland Clinic Marymount Hospital. Welcome.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

Thank you.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

At Marymount Hospital, you and your team are doing some really bold things around the model of care and delivering care to patients differently.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

We are.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

So, could you share with us a little bit about where that idea came from, how you recruited other people into that vision, and where it's right now?

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

Absolutely. It's something I love to talk about is med-surg nursing. First off, med-surg nursing is a specialty. Thank you, thank you.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

That's right.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

Thank you. And, and, and Carol, mark that down, I think that's a topic for another podcast.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Yes. That's right. Noted!

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

I'm advocating for med-surg, so.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

There you go.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

First off, being bold does not mean you need to do this solo or singularly, and I am blessed that I have a partner, Nelita Iuppa. Where are you, Nelita? She has been wonderful partnering with me. She brings a different way of thinking, and very innovatively, and we have done great things. We've also expanded it to a wonderful team.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Okay.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

These are med-surg nurse leaders who also are passionate about med-surg, and they bring, again, innovativeness, reality to how are we going to accomplish this goal? So, we were asked to create a model of care, to sustain a model of care that equally takes care of patients and equally engages caregivers.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Sure.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

They both have to be in sync with each other.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Absolutely.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

You all know why we're focusing on med-surg, because we know that the nursing shortage that's here, it's not going away, and we know it's even worse for med-surg.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah, for sure.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

So, we have to take some time and pay attention to this, and who better, being bold, than us to say, "This is on us"?

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

That's right.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

This is for us to take a look at, to fix, because our brilliant minds, collectively and individually, we can take care of this. So, with that said, what have we done? We've stepped up to say, "This is on us." So, this group got together, and they came up with a model of care delivery.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Okay.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

Very similar to team nursing, for those of you who remember team nursing.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

That which is old is new again.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

Right, right, old is new, and it's working. So, we paired up an RN with their very own PCNA.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Okay.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

They are teamed together. We've added additional resources, a charge nurse as well as we've added a throughput nurse.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Oh, that's great. Okay.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

And we've made sure that nursing does nursing roles, and Matt Slife has really helped us make sure that we are doing nursing, so thank you, Matt. Still more work to come, but I have to tell you, shout-out to the two nurse managers that stepped up, Danielle Duris from Hillcrest and Mallory Sovacool.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Sure. Yeah!

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

That's right. And Mallory Sovacool from Marymount, she can't be here today, but with some backup from Vince Thompson. Go ahead, give him a shout-out.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

I mean, all right. Let's hear it for Vince.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

Absolutely. Right? And they stepped up and said, "Let's pilot this."

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Right.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

So, Marymount's been doing this pilot since September 12th.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Oh, okay.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

Mandi Testa, our new director, has come on board and taken it over, we're gonna add another unit November 1st, and it has gone extremely well.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Great. Excellent.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

Well, how do we know it's going well? So, here's some really quick outcomes. Caregivers, day and night, are getting breaks.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Hey! Yeah, yes!

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

It's simple, but powerful, right?

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

That's air, food, and water.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

And, we have caregivers asking to pick up shifts on these units, because teamwork and caring for the patients is just so apparent.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

That's fantastic. Sure.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

So, more work to come.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Sure.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

Shout-out again to those two nurse managers who are bold in themselves.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

That's right.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

They went out and explained it to their caregivers. They didn't want anybody else explaining it.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Hmm, that ownership, yeah.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

And they listened. They owned it, they listened, they're visible, and we've actually tweaked the pilot due to the feedback we've gotten from the caregivers.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Excellent. Thank you so much. Next, I am delighted to introduce you to Dr. Susan Clark. Susan is the chief nursing officer of our Cleveland Clinic Martin Health System in lovely Florida.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

Hey.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

She is joining us live in less than lovely Cleveland today, but we're so glad to have you here. Susan, certainly, as Barb mentioned as well, the nursing shortage isn't just a Cleveland Clinic issue, it's not an Ohio issue, it's absolutely nationwide. Can you share a little bit with us about how you and your team have taken a bold and yet different approach to recruitment and reach-out to caregivers and agency resources?

Dr. Susan Clark:

Yeah, well, first I'll start off and say, you know, when I was asked to do this and asked about being bold, I was taken back because, you know, in the last several years, it's felt more like desperation. And you know, we've been trying to figure out how we were gonna staff and how we were going to, you know, lessen the amount of agency we're using on our walls.

You mentioned team, and I wish I could have the team up here with me now, because it was them. And we got together. At one point, there being three hospitals, we had well over 300+, you know, agencies within our walls.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Wow. Yeah, yes.

Dr. Susan Clark:

And so, we took a list of all of them, and we divided it up, and we just said, "Let's go out and make personal connections with each and every one of them." And the managers were very helpful, because they were able to tell us if they met Cleveland Clinic values and wo- would be great to join our family.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Well, yeah.

Dr. Susan Clark:

And we did all levels of leadership, boots on the ground, and talked about what the organization had to offer them.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Which is a lot.

Dr. Susan Clark:

And at times, they weren't ready to stop traveling yet, but, hey, why not, will you sit down and talk to a recruiter?

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Sure.

Dr. Susan Clark:

I can get you on with a recruiter right now.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah.

Dr. Susan Clark:

So that they could hear, because at some point they do stop moving around and traveling and settle down, so that they know what's there for them. So that was very helpful. We also partnered with our colleagues here in Ohio, and introduced what we call the long-term assignments, which we did not have in Florida at the time.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Mm, yes.

Dr. Susan Clark:

That really enhanced our ability to turn over the agency into our own caregivers.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Sure.

Dr. Susan Clark:

So, since we've been implementing that, we've dropped our agency 85 percent since last summer.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Wow.

Dr. Susan Clark:

So, yeah.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah!

Dr. Susan Clark:

Yeah. Yes, Matt, it was 85 percent. But yeah, so it's, it's a different world. And it was the team, staffing operations, talent acquisition, it had to be everyone working together to be able to, in that moment, to get them to hear what we have to offer.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Sure.

Dr. Susan Clark:

The support. I have wonderful leadership also, in the Florida region and up here, and we couldn't have done it without that support. So, kudos to the team, and we're glad to have that as an agency.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

That's a nice thing.

Dr. Susan Clark:

And we're gonna start on the ORs next.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Let's, let's do it! Yes.

Dr. Susan Clark:

Those are our only ones left.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

We'll get there. Thank you so much. Next, I'm delighted to introduce you to Terri Murray.

Dr. Susan Clark:

Yeah.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Terri is the chief nursing officer at South Pointe Hospital. So, we're gonna switch gears a little bit and you and our team have done such amazing things, bold things, in terms of outreach to the community that you serve.

Terri Murray:

Okay.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Terri Murray:

Yeah, thank you for the opportunity to take this one on. I think when we talk about going bold for the community, I think we really put in our hearts that we have a commitment and a responsibility to humanity. And that humanity puts our feet flat on the ground and where we work towards improving the life of the people we serve. I think it's really a cool thing, and I, I don't think it's common, but I think we have a wonderful leadership that has connected us to the community and set us on that responsibility.

Dr. Mihaljevic with lead abatement, infant mortality, to name a few. It is incredible. And, and when I'm looking around the room, and I think of all the years of the nursing experience in here, and how we've honed our craft to be professional nurses, and how we've taken such pride to take care of patients, we're excellent at taking care of patients when we trap them behind the side rails. We're very, very good at that in our spaces. We are mean with a care plan. We do, we put it together and we care for patients. However, disease is insidious, right? And it, it, it mostly in the community and mostly in chronic disease, and we have to take that responsibility to look at that.

I had the opportunity to work with some residents, and one of the questions that was asked was what is the number one thing that's gonna cause your death if you have breast cancer? And they were resounding in saying, "Zip code," and that is, and that is extremely grounding.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Oh.

Terri Murray:

And in the zip code I serve, and we serve, my team, our patients will die 16 to 18 years before those in surrounding zip codes, and that's just the Area of Deprivation Index, and that's a true story. And what we look at when we see that, it's things like food insecurity, education insecurity, lack of resources, lack of education. All of those things tie into that. And if that doesn't put our feet straight to purpose, I don't know what does.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Right.

Terri Murray:

And, and we're good at that. And Kelly did say, and Meredith and I took great wisdom in that, that there is so much power and influence in this room. And that's where we have to bring our influence. And that's what we do. Our team goes out, and we started out with delivering 140 boxes of food, partnering with our food bank rep to 480 boxes of food, and it's twice a month. 

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Oh, wonderful. Wow. Oh, my gosh.

Terri Murray:

There is quite a need in society. Also doing digital/virtual expansion, partnering with our schools, partnering with our civic leaders, trying to find out how nursing could get at those tables to help at that grassroots level to really understand how we can make the lives of our patients better. So, thank you, team at South Pointe. It's a team effort. And the team at South Pointe is incredibly focused on this, knowing that our patients suffer in this way, and we're very aware of it, and we are out there and doing things to try to improve humanity to that level.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

That's amazing. Thank you.

Terri Murray:

You're welcome.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

And last, but most certainly not least, it's my pleasure to welcome Mary Beth Thoburn. Mary Beth is the chief nursing officer of Fairview Hospital. Mary Beth, you are so passionate about leadership development, so can you share with us a little bit about how you encourage your leaders, A, to be bold, or, B, how to help their teams be courageous and take bold steps?

Mary Beth Thoburn:

Well, I hope I lead by example. Throughout my career, I've lived by the motto, "Beg forgiveness." For the most part, it's served me well. Once in a while it does backfire. But all kidding aside, there's a difference between thoughtful bold and reckless bold.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Sure. Yeah, absolutely.

Mary Beth Thoburn:

And so, when we have great ideas, and we do have great ideas, I know no greater group of problem solvers than nurses, we talk about them.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Absolutely.

Mary Beth Thoburn:

And we talk about what we are trying to accomplish, how is it consistent with our goals and our mission, who needs to be involved, but most importantly, what's the worst that can happen if we do this?

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Hmm. That's right, yeah.

Mary Beth Thoburn:

And as we talk through those things, we create energy and passion and more great ideas about, "Maybe we can actually pull this off." And I think it's energizing, both on individual levels and on group levels.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah, absolutely.

Mary Beth Thoburn:

So that's what we encourage.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

There you go. And, and what's the worst that could happen if we don't do something, right?

Mary Beth Thoburn:

Exactly.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Excellent. Well, ladies, thank you. We're gonna open it up to some other questions here that I'd love to hear you chime in on. So bold doesn't always equal successful.

Mary Beth Thoburn:

Right.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

That thoughtful versus reckless perhaps. When in your career have you made a bold move that didn't quite pan out as expected? How did you course correct? Or how did it help inform you as a leader?

Dr. Susan Clark:

So that makes me think back to when I applied for a position many years ago. I was applying to be an inpatient director, and I didn't get the position. And I think many of us have gone through that and you, the feelings you get.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah. Sure.

Dr. Susan Clark:

And I thought for sure this, I was gonna get this position, right? And I shut down, like, and I recognized a change in myself. And for two solid weeks, I really was just different. I was in that funk. And then I said to myself, "Okay, I've, I've got to shift. And only I can control that. No one did this to me," and I still had a team that I had to take care of and support.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Well, yeah.

Dr. Susan Clark:

So, then I shifted that, and to be honest, it wasn't long after that we had decided to build another hospital. And so, a different opportunity came up and I got to go open a brand-new hospital, which is an opportunity like, it, it's just incredible. And I didn't know how to do that, but we figured it out. We did it together.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

That's right.

Dr. Susan Clark:

And I think back and I, you know, if I would've stayed in that funk, or if I would've gotten that other position, so, my words of wisdom here are just don't give up, right? Because you want to. In the moment, you want to, you don't feel like you're successful, but flip that head around and just keep at it, because other opportunities can come up. And now I'm a CNO, so.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Well, look at you now, right? Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Susan Clark:

So, it can work.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

That's right. It worked out. Well, thank you for sharing such a personal story. We really appreciate it.

Dr. Susan Clark:

Yeah, no problem.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

So, on that same theme, sometimes we have a really great bold idea and maybe the timing isn't quite right. Any other tips for people in terms of, you've gotten to this place, you know it's a great idea, how do you sorta get through that? What do you do with that?

Mary Beth Thoburn:

I think it's important for all of us to remember, life is not a straight line.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah, that's for sure.

Mary Beth Thoburn:

And sometimes it's not that the idea isn't good or right, it's just not the right time. I think that's where resilience is important, in recognizing the answer today may be no, but no is not synonymous with never, it's just not now.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

For sure, yeah.

Mary Beth Thoburn:

And looking for opportunities in the future to kinda nudge again, kind of encourage it, raise the issue. And I, again, I think we're good at it. I think we're good at knowing, okay, maybe now is not the time, but, to Susan's point, there will be another opportunity, let's try again and let's keep moving.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah. A great idea whose time has not yet come. Thank you, Mary Beth.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

You know, Carol, if I can add to that, I truly believe that whatever we decide to do, and I think Mary Beth or someone already said it, it has to be in aligned with our mission and our own carers.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah. Please.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

It has to be. And if it's not, then it's gonna be more difficult. And I truly also believe in partnering with someone who has your passion. It just makes it so much easier for you to build your own confidence when you have somebody to work side by side with.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Certainly. Thanks, Barb. So, building on that theme a bit, you have a great idea, you have a bold idea, how do you recruit other people into that vision and help get them excited too? We've all talked about the teamwork that you need to execute it, and how do you get that started?

Terri Murray:

I think it's important to really get people positioned into the why and get their motivation. Use the teams that are on the ground. It's not always had to be your idea. Shared governance is a powerful tool to use to get nurses excited about ideas and excited about taking risks and excited about bringing forward their ideas.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Absolutely.

Terri Murray:

And tell your stories. I think you may not always be successful, but you tell your story, you say, "This is what can happen. What could be the worst that happens? And let's give this a try."

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Excellent. Thank you, Terri. So, we all have day jobs, everybody in this room, right? (laughs) So sometimes it turns into I have this bold idea, or I'm a manager with a bold idea, I have lots of other things I have going on. How do you find that balance by either helping somebody with that idea or helping it bloom while also maintaining those really important commitments? You don't want to shortchange any of them, of course. What do, what do you say to that?

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

I think at Marymount, I am very, very blessed that I have wonderful leaders in the director level and the nurse manager level, that they are doing that work so that I can be freed up to whether it was to work with the progressive care unit step-down project or the model of care project.

So, coach and mentor those that, so that they can also do the work, so that you can as the leader get freed up to do other things. And that's what gets me excited.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Sure.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

I enjoyed meeting so many of you and working with so many other directors from other different hospitals. So really build your bank strength so that you can do others. And then, have your bank strength reach out and get involved in other projects also.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

And it's a great opportunity for them as well. Excellent. Thank you. So, someone says, "I wouldn't know the first thing about being bold," or "How do you, how do you get over the fear?" What would you say to somebody who just is having a hard time taking that first step?

Mary Beth Thoburn:

I think talking through the idea, why it's important, and then really getting down to, what are you afraid of? What's the worst that can happen? I think most nurses I know are very value driven. And when they have an idea, it's because it's really important to who they are as people and who they are as nurses and what they feel their obligation to their patients and their community is.

So, focusing on that and saying, "Okay, let's step through this. What could happen? What are you worried about? What's your worse fear?" And then, once you understand that, you really need to build in the support to say, "You are surrounded by a team of people who are walking with you."

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Right. We're nurses, we never go to it alone. We're always surrounding ourselves.

Mary Beth Thoburn:

We never go alone.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah.

Mary Beth Thoburn:

And providing that encouragement, sometimes through support in either resource. You know, I role-play a lot with people, "Okay, let's have the conversation. What does it look like? What does it sound like? What do you anticipate?"

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Oh, yeah? Yeah.

Mary Beth Thoburn:

And really providing moral support. And then last, but not least, acknowledging not just success, but the trying, "You put yourself out there. What a great thing you have done," and just rewarding that behavior.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

And celebrating each little step. That's fantastic. Yep.

Dr. Susan Clark:

And I think our speaker earlier said it, you know, 91 percent of what you worry about isn't gonna happen.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Yep.

Dr. Susan Clark:

So, it is just getting out there and giving it a try.

Mary Beth Thoburn:

Right.

Dr. Susan Clark:

And, you know, like I share with a lot of my team is a lot of the best learning experiences I have is because I made a mistake the first time, right? So, you just take it, you learn from it, and move forward.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Right.

Dr. Susan Clark:

And know you're not alone. We're always a team. You're never alone out there. And we've all felt that way and gone through those same emotions and nerves and all of that, so give it a shot.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

And what would happen if we weren't bold?

Dr. Susan Clark:

That's right.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Excellent. Well, I could ask these ladies questions all day, but unfortunately, we do have to start wrapping it up. So, with each podcast episode, we do a little speed round at the end to try to let our audience know a little bit more about each of you. You get off the hook, you only get one question, but you'll all get the same question. Could you please share with our audience what brings you joy?

Dr. Susan Clark:

I can absolutely say being a nurse and nurse leader continues to bring me joy; my family, traveling. And I would be completely remiss if I didn't say my Florida State Seminoles are bringing me a lot of joy this season. Yeah!

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Got some fans out there too.

Terri Murray:

I think for me just being here has been, you know, pretty exciting. And I thought about this as far as joy. The joy that I do have joy that I made it here and I look halfway decent after coming home after the Eagles concert at 1:45 in the morning.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

You still have it in you.

Terri Murray:

So.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

She didn't even lose her voice. She did good.

Terri Murray:

I think that, you know, the joy is really the hope that I see here. There are so many leaders that I've had the opportunity to be mentored by and hopefully had the opportunity to mentor, and I feel like there's much hope and there's much power. And there is much, much for us to do, but we have a really bright future. And I have a granddaughter who I cannot not mention, even though, you know, because she's, my heart.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Of course.

Terri Murray:

So, those are the things that are important to me.

Mary Beth Thoburn:

I've learned to find joy in the little things we accomplish every day. I think when we think about joy, we're always looking for the big wins, and it's really the little ones, the little things that work well each and every day.

I am in awe at some of the things our caregivers accomplish in less-than-optimal circumstances in every way. Outside of my professional life, my family. I love to cook. I love my granddogs. I love my future grandchildren. No pressure, newly married daughters.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

It's also been recorded. Feel free to play this episode to whomever needs to hear that, yeah.

Mary Beth Thoburn:

And I will, thank you.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

Personally, I find joy in my family and my faith and jigsaw puzzles.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Hm. Oh, okay.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

Saturday night, I cannot go to sleep until I get that last piece in.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

That's your thing. All right.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

Professionally, I find joy in my colleagues, all of you here, and especially my birthday buddy.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Birthday twins!

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

We have the same birthday. Thank you.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

And we wouldn't have known that if we hadn't been part of a different leadership summit, so there you go.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

That's right.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

Well, ladies, beautifully said. I can't thank each of you enough for sharing your wisdom with us today. And thank you to the Cleveland Clinic Nursing Leadership Summit for allowing us to be part of this great event!

Terri Murray:

Thank you.

Dr. Barbara R. Zinner:

Thank you.

Dr. Susan Clark:

Thank you.

Mary Beth Thoburn:

Thank you.

Dr. Carol Pehotsky:

All right.

As always, thanks so much for joining us for today's discussion. Don't miss out, subscribe to hear new episodes wherever you get your podcasts. And remember, we want to hear from you. Do you have ideas for future podcasts or want to share your stories? Email at NurseEssentials@CCF.org. To learn more about nursing at Cleveland Clinic, please check us out at ClevelandClinic.org/nursing. Until next time, take care of yourselves and take care of each other.

The information in this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only and does not constitute medical or legal advice. Consult your local state boards of nursing for any specific practice questions.