Nursing Leader Attentiveness

Podcast Transcript

Carol Pehotsky:

As nurses, we all have bosses, we all have leaders, and we all have viewpoints and needs from our leaders. But how do we most effectively make our needs known? And if we're leaders, how can we best respond to those needs, especially when sometimes we don't have the answers? Nancy Albert joins me today to share her expertise on Leader Attentiveness.

Hi, and welcome to Nurse Essentials, a Cleveland Clinic Podcast where we discuss all things nursing from patient care to advancing your career, to navigating tough on-the-job issues. We're so glad you're here. I'm your host, Carol Pehotsky, associate Chief Nursing Officer of Surgical Services Nursing.

I've been reflecting on the really fantastic episode we had with Kelly Hancock talking about her entree into leadership and really thinking about what does it look and feel like to go from being the bedside nurse to a leader or to evolve a nursing role. And I had such an honor to be led by such amazing nurse leaders over my tenure, but thinking back to when I was, especially as a new grad, that very first bedside nurse, what was I looking for from my nurse leader? I worked straight nights, so I didn't get a whole lot of interaction with my leadership team.

There was a night shift assistant nurse manager that probably was stretched across the whole house. You know, you didn't see somebody unless you were in trouble. But what did that feel like for me back then? And, and I remember, you know, really wanting somebody first, I wanted somebody who would literally roll up their sleeves and help, right?

Why isn't there somebody here to help take this patient assignment? And that was, you know, early on in my nursing career, wanting somebody who could literally walk the talk. And, you know, as my career moved on a little bit, even in bedside nursing, it, it got a little bit less of that. I mean, obviously everybody appreciates when, when somebody comes in and helps and rolls up their sleeves.

But really, what is that person listening? Are they responsive? Knowing that a bedside nurse doesn't necessarily have a lot of time to, to sit down and interact with their manager? You know, if I go into their office, what is that like? Am I heard? Are they gonna do something about it? Or, or how is that going to go? And, and have some great experiences and some, unfortunately less great experiences along the way that hopefully help inform the leader I am in terms of what I can be for my teams and what I can ask of the teams who lead other people.

So, a lot to talk about. And so, I'm thrilled to be joined today again by Dr. Nancy M. Albert. She's back with us today, back by popular demand. You'll remember that she joined us to talk about the person behind the patient before, and we're so thrilled to have you back. Nancy, thanks for coming back.

Nancy M. Albert:

Thanks so much, Carol, for having me back again.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yes.

Nancy M. Albert:

Thrilled to be here.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yes. So, so we're gonna linger a little bit differently on your credentials for this topic. So, as you'll remember, she's our Associate Chief Nursing Officer for Nursing Research and Innovation for the Stanley Shalom Zielony Nursing Institute at Cleveland Clinic. She's an active clinical nurse specialist, still seeing patients in the Kaufman Center for Heart Failure Treatment and Recovery, a published countless peer review articles in nursing and medical journals.

She, formal leadership, she does lead a team of nurse scientists. And she was the very first nursing president of the Heart Failure Society of America. But we couldn't possibly count the number of individuals you've led over your career in terms of, myself included, the, I think I want to do some research or the nursing student or the caregiver, the nursing leader who said help, and how much you have led and mentored us in that space.

I mean, I don't even know, though, we had a Department of Nursing Research before you came along, and now we do. And it's amazing. And as if that weren't enough, leadership street cred, Nancy is also the first author of the sixth edition of Quantum Leadership. Thank you so much. Let's talk about nursing.

Nancy M. Albert:

Okay.

Carol Pehotsky:

Let's talk about leadership.

Nancy M. Albert:

Great.

Carol Pehotsky:

All right. So, you came to me with this idea, which I think is a great idea. I would love for you to kick us off with telling me a little bit more about what gets you excited about this particular topic.

Nancy M. Albert:

Yeah, that, thanks. Um, so what really happened was I got involved in a research project that was being led by our caregiver office, and they asked me if I'd be willing to participate. And I found out it was gonna be about really talking to nurses. Initially, we thought it was gonna be about teamwork and how do we enhance teamwork. During COVID, there was a lot of burnout and stress among the nurses. Just a little no surprise. And we thought maybe teamwork would be a good, a good topic.

Carol Pehotsky:

Mm-hmm. Sure.

Nancy M. Albert:

But interestingly for me, when we started interviewing our nurses, these were nurses in high stress work environments. We started learning more about the fact that nurses were maybe speaking up but not feeling heard. And so, I thought this would be a really great topic to talk about because hopefully we have budding nurse leaders out there whether they're assistant nurse managers or nurse managers, or even directors, et cetera. And I really feel that, you know, we always say that you're the head of household when you're the nurse manager and it's really a hard job.

Carol Pehotsky:

Oh, yeah. Everything to everybody. Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

Yeah. Yeah. You get, you get stress from above, you get stress from a staff below, you're, you're the go-to person. And so, I think feeling heard is something that nurse managers really need to pay attention to. And there are tricks or tactics they can do to do a better job of it over time, but first they need to understand what we mean. And they need to be willing and able to act on that.

Carol Pehotsky:

So, what sort of themes did you hear from the nurses you spoke to in terms of, you know, this, we've had other episodes about speaking up and at sort of a high level, but not necessarily delving into the other end of it. I can say what I want to, but if nobody's listening, it doesn't go anywhere. So, what themes did you hear around that listening piece?

Nancy M. Albert:

Right. There was, there were two main themes that came out of this. And one was that nurses felt deflected. And we could talk a little bit about what that means, but the other one was that they may have also felt abandoned.

Carol Pehotsky:

Oh, gosh.

Nancy M. Albert:

So, feeling deflected and feeling abandoned. And you could imagine that both of those, if I'm having a conversation with you as a clinician, and you're my boss, and I'm, I'm either looking for answers or I'm looking for responses and I either get a deflection kind of response or heaven forbidden abandonment kind of response.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

That, that may not help me as a clinician feel engaged with my leadership team. And, you know, we, we know from historical perspectives that the number one reason why people leave jobs when it comes to work, not pay and other things but when it comes to work, is issues with their management. And usually, it's their local management not a director or a CNO up the food chain.

Carol Pehotsky:

Sure. Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

It's somebody local. So, it's usually the manager. I didn't like my manager; I didn't feel like we connected or those kind of things. So, I think when we talk about feeling deflected, part of it is empty solicitation as an example. So, I come to you and I, I raise concerns, questions, ideas, and I get the kind of deer in the headlight look response. So, it's empty. You don't hear me; you don't see me you don't support it.

Carol Pehotsky:

I'm holding still long enough for you to finish your sentence.

Nancy M. Albert:

Yes. And you may.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah, that's rough. Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

And then of course, it's even worse if you say, I don't have time to talk about this.

Carol Pehotsky:

Right. Yikes. Right.

Nancy M. Albert:

So, then the message, the person saying is, why did I bother bringing that up? Not being valued. I try to help, I'm trying to raise issues so maybe we can overcome, and I'm getting, I'm getting the wall.

Carol Pehotsky:

So, and you know, you think about both sides of that interaction, right? So, you, I'm busy on the floor, I see my nurse manager coming down the hallway. Ooh, I have an idea. Hey, hey Nancy, can I talk to you about this? So, two parties are involved here, and the outcome doesn't go as planned. So, what advice do you have?

We'll start with the nurse who's, who's trying to catch that nurse manager in a bit of a drive by when they get that blank response, what's maybe something they should try the next time?

Nancy M. Albert:

Yeah, that's a really good point. So again, the nurse could be tunnel vision because they needs to do something now.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

Right? And of course, the clinician doesn't know that when they go up to their leader. So, I think the first thing to do is do not be afraid to go up to that nurse manager later when they're in their office and say, "Hey, this morning I stopped by, made a comment, and you either responded in a way I didn't expect or you gave me the deer in the headlight look or, you know, I felt like you didn't even hear me because you were you were running. So, I wanted to see if we could make time to discuss this again.

Carol Pehotsky:

Right.

Nancy M. Albert:

And so, try to put ourselves out there in the right environment and say, I really want to talk to you.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yes.

Nancy M. Albert:

I think it's important, it's gonna help me do my job better, whatever it is.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yes. Mm-hmm.

Nancy M. Albert:

Um, and, and get that one-on-one attention with the nurse manager.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yes. Yes.

Nancy M. Albert:

And then you'll really get a sense of if now the person's in their office.

Carol Pehotsky:

Strike two.

Nancy M. Albert:

Yes, that's right. If you're hitting strike two, then maybe this is not the interaction going on. And maybe you do need to think about, is this the right environment for me?

Carol Pehotsky:

Right. Well, and, and hopefully you all listened to the last episode where Nancy was on, where we talked about the person behind the patient. But lots can to relate to here that it's okay as a leader to be vulnerable enough with your caregivers to say, you know, that nurse comes at you in the hallway, and you've got 15 things on your mind. You know, I'm so sorry, Nancy. I, I, my, I'm not in a great head space I have a few things going on. Let's, I'll try to circle back with you later, or let's find time to say, "Ugh, this is not a great time.”

Nancy M. Albert:

Right.

Carol Pehotsky:

But it's a much better response than sort of that glazed over. I, I can't deal with this now.

Nancy M. Albert:

Right. Right. And, and that's one of the, when we were talking with nurses and they were telling a story, so to speak. One of the ways they felt deflected was formality by the nurse manager.

Carol Pehotsky:

Oh, okay.

Nancy M. Albert:

So that kind of goes along with it a little bit. So, the nurse manager didn't seem genuine, didn't seem authentic seemed distant, seemed whether emotionally or physically distanced would give standardized responses. So, it's almost like you're a robot, you're in this formal.

Carol Pehotsky:

This is what I was told to tell you.

Nancy M. Albert:

That's right.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

This is what I was told to tell you. Or this is the only way I know how to respond. Maybe you're rolling your eyes while you're doing it.

Carol Pehotsky:

Right.

Nancy M. Albert:

So now you've got the verbal and the non-verbal going at the same time. And nurses feel it, sense it, hear it.

Carol Pehotsky:

Oh, yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

And, and they know that this is, oh, I'm just getting the standard line.

Carol Pehotsky:

Right.

Nancy M. Albert:

You know, so it didn't, it doesn't feel genuine. It doesn't feel authentic. So that could be a really big problem as well when we are thinking about that deflection piece.

Carol Pehotsky:

Sure.

Nancy M. Albert:

And then of course, there's being ignored completely. And that's, that's a tough one to say.

Carol Pehotsky:

Hopefully that's not happening. Right.

Nancy M. Albert:

Hopefully that's not happening. But I think it happens indirectly. So let me give you an example, and I understand when this happens. So, don't get me wrong, its life, right? So, you're a nurse clinician, you go up to your manager and you say, we ought to do something about this. I have an idea. The nurse manager's thinking in their head, "I know we can't afford it, I'm afraid. Even mention it to my boss.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

I don't know the first thing about X, Y Z because I'm not an engineer, I'm not a, a nutritionist. I'm not a physical therapist, I'm a nurse, right? So, you don't really understand it. You know, it's gonna be expensive, it's out of your scope, let's say.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

And so, you don't know how to respond, so you kind of ignore it. So, the nurse who raised it up now feels deflected because you ignore them.

Carol Pehotsky:

Right.

Nancy M. Albert:

So, I think there are ways, again, that nurse managers can handle those kind of situations so that the nurse that's raising the conversations, trying to make things better doesn't feel deflected.

Carol Pehotsky:

Sure. And you, you think about, again, its sometimes people come at us expecting that we would have all the answers. Rarely do we.

Nancy M. Albert:

Yeah. So true.

Carol Pehotsky:

The very specific topics. So how do we, in whatever form of leadership we're in, do that same thing we talked about last time. Again, it's very closely connected. I love it is to say, I, I don't even know where to start with that.

Nancy M. Albert:

That's right.

Carol Pehotsky:

It's hard to be that vulnerable, but at least as a, like, I, that's a great idea. I don't know where to start with that, and maybe not, but, and I will start making some inquiries.

Nancy M. Albert:

Right.

Carol Pehotsky:

Or do you have any ideas about who we should talk to? You're well connected in this hospital.

Nancy M. Albert:

Right.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

And, and what's really important about the comment you just made is that now the clinician doesn't think of themselves as being the lower-level person and the nurse managers the higher level person you create an even playing field. I know people can't see me moving my hands around but now I'm putting my hands in parallel here. Um, so, you know, now suddenly you're saying, I don't have the answer to that, but it's such a good question.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yes.

Nancy M. Albert:

And wow, I can't believe you're thinking like this you may be the next time site.

Carol Pehotsky:

That's right. Applaud the thought. Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

So, applaud the thought. Uh, let people know that you care enough to listen and hear and then say, here's what I can do.

Carol Pehotsky:

Right.

Nancy M. Albert:

You know, I can ask clinical engineering if they're willing to meet with us for a half an hour meeting in our exam room or, or whatever it is, so that we can talk more about this and see if we could break things to life or in, in my role as an innovation expert, we could say.

Carol Pehotsky:

Let's go see Nancy Albert. She can help us.

Nancy M. Albert:

That's right. Yeah. Exactly. So again, finding out who the right people are, and you may not know who the right people are.

Carol Pehotsky:

Right.

Nancy M. Albert:

You know, I go up to my boss all the time, Meredith, when I'm meeting with her and say, "Okay, who do I meet with?"

Carol Pehotsky:

Right.

Nancy M. Albert:

And she'll tell me.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah. Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

You know?

Carol Pehotsky:

Right. Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

So are Matt's lifers, you know?

Carol Pehotsky:

That's right.

Nancy M. Albert:

You figure out who you need to meet with to, to make things happen.

Carol Pehotsky:

And keep asking until you find that person. And, and I guess what I'd offer for our nurses out there too is that, you know, like, like in life, right? Include, you know, if you've been thinking about something for hours and hours, and sometimes the way it comes out, there's a presumption that that person has also been thinking about for hours. When this is just hitting them brand new. I think about, you know, honey, I've been thinking about this thing with my spouse.

And he's like, what are you talking about? Because in my head I've had 15 conversations about it. But in reality, we're having just the first one.

Nancy M. Albert:

Right.

Carol Pehotsky:

And so, thinking about this can be really important to you, but are your thoughts together enough? Is, is a hallway the right place versus just a, hey, can I have five minutes of your time? Versus I'm going to download everything I've thought about for the last three weeks and how that's delivered. I, I remember once upon a time working with a nurse, she did not report to me.

That was back when I was in education and came flying into the classroom and very flustered about, about a situation. And I said, well, well, talk me through exactly how that just went. And the reenactment was very animated red in the face. I'm like, "Are you feeling now the same way you did?" And well, yeah. It's like any chance your manager was reacting to the emotion and not the words you said.

Nancy M. Albert:

Oh, that's a good one.

Carol Pehotsky:

But because it was, it was eyes, you know, wide open face, bright red. She'd been, you know, it was a very frustrating situation. But she came to her manager with it after she'd been stewing about it for about three days. So that manager has, you know, no idea the intensity of the emotion.

Nancy M. Albert:

Right.

Carol Pehotsky:

And so, we, we talked through it's okay to feel emotional. It's a very frustrating situation. How do you channel that though?

Nancy M. Albert:

To get the words out. Yeah.

Carol Pehotsky:

To get the words out. So, they're not, now I'm visually backing up for the microphone, but, but reacting to what was really almost aggressive.

Nancy M. Albert:

Yeah.

Carol Pehotsky:

And she didn't intend for that, but it was just, she couldn't control it anymore.

Nancy M. Albert:

Right.

Carol Pehotsky:

And how, how could she practice sort of reigning some of that in to convey the passion without getting in the way of her own words?

Nancy M. Albert:

That's right. Because it's true. If a manager hears somebody being very emotional, they don't hear the words. They hear anger, they hear the stress, they, and their first thought is, you need to calm down. And I didn't hear the words at all.

Carol Pehotsky:

Right. Right.

Nancy M. Albert:

It's, you need to calm down. And so, if people could channel that.

Carol Pehotsky:

That, and history of words you need to calm down, has never worked to calm, somebody down.

Nancy M. Albert:

No. No. So, you're not gonna say it, but you're thinking, you know, how do I calm that person down?

Carol Pehotsky:

Yes.

Nancy M. Albert:

And that may you know, so then the, the words themselves get lost. And in fact, when we, when we were talking to nurses, one of the feeling abandoned pieces was all about, we, we ended up calling it kind of being a maze that you just never can get out of.

Carol Pehotsky:

Oh gosh. Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

So, you know, I ask you for something, I'm talking to you about something. I've been waiting and waiting and waiting. But we're a big organization.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

There's multiple layers of our environment. As a manager, I may not know who to go to or who to get from or maybe I do. I go to somebody, but then I never get a response. Or I convey the issue and I thought they heard me because they said yes, they responded, thanks, but then nothing happened.

Carol Pehotsky:

Nothing.

Nancy M. Albert:

So, then my poor nurse who started the, the train feels like the train was abandoned.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yes.

Nancy M. Albert:

Because no one got back to that nurse to say you know, it's been three weeks. I haven't heard from John but I contacted John. I'm gonna contact John again. I'll let you know when I hear something. And then maybe even say, but if I don't get back to you in two weeks get back to me again because push me along. Because it may be that this is not the right person and they're ignoring me because they don't know what to do.

Carol Pehotsky:

Right.

Nancy M. Albert:

But I need to then take a new step or a new action.

Carol Pehotsky:

And I love the way you said that because then it's, it's creating that partnership between the nurse with the idea and the manager and acknowledging that everybody has multiple competing demands. But if I don't give that update then again, that nurse is feeling forgotten. But inviting that to say, I, I want to keep this on the top of my priority list. If it slips, I need you to hold me accountable. And just even like, hey, have you heard?

Nancy M. Albert:

Right.

Carol Pehotsky:

And, and keep it non-judgmental and just looking for an update. Oh my gosh, thank you for reminding me. Let me circle back and see.

Nancy M. Albert:

Yeah. And so that's part of being, feeling heard. So, if I go back to you again and say, I heard you, but I don't have a response yet, then the nurse at least can believe that their manager is supportive again. You know, is uh, there for them.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yes. What other themes did you hear when you listened to nurses?

Nancy M. Albert:

I think the one last theme that we heard is things like a pat response from a manager. And it was almost like, don't shoot the messenger. Right? So, the, the nurse manager maybe gave an answer that was an automatic response. And nurses don't want automatic responses. It may be true that that's kind of the response, so how can a nurse manager, how might a nurse manager get the message across, but make it not feel like a pat response. And so, we try very hard to help our nurse managers out by giving 'em song sheets to, to talk off of. Right?

Carol Pehotsky:

Sure. Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

And I think that's really helpful to people who are new nurse managers, but we need to remember that we need to consider the context of the what's on that sheet of paper and the person in front of us when we're talking and figure out how we do it in a way that doesn't feel rigid and formalized.

And it almost sounds like it's coming from somebody else. You know, you want it to sound like.

Carol Pehotsky:

Sometimes we make the mistake of saying this is coming from somebody else. Please don't do that.

Nancy M. Albert:

Yeah. That really bad. Don't do that. Listen to Carol. Um, yeah. So, we need to, we need to sound genuine. We need to sound like we're interested. And some of that means that we need to get better at again, letting people know, especially if we don't have the answer that I don't have the answer for you because we're all in this together.

Carol Pehotsky:

Right.

Nancy M. Albert:

And, you know during COVID was a great example. That's when this research was going on. And again, people were stressed and burned out. And the one number one question was, you know, what are we gonna do about our nursing shortage? Right?

Carol Pehotsky:

Right.

Nancy M. Albert:

How are we gonna get more nurses on our unit?

Carol Pehotsky:

Right.

Nancy M. Albert:

And, you know, a pat answer from a nurse manager could have been, I don't know, there are no nurses or there's nothing we could do about it.

Carol Pehotsky:

Right. Yes.

Nancy M. Albert:

But what maybe they should have said is, let's talk about what the issues are that are affecting you in your day-to-day work. And then let's think about how we could be innovative or how we can work differently together as a team so that the work can get done. You could have less stress because I can't make more nurses just appear out of the clear blue sky.

Carol Pehotsky:

Or how do we make things new and exciting, so people want to come work here.

Nancy M. Albert:

That's right.

Carol Pehotsky:

And people want to stay.

Nancy M. Albert:

That's right. So that, and also, how can I make it so that you want to stay?

Carol Pehotsky:

Absolutely. Yes.

Nancy M. Albert:

So, I, I do think that there's ways to talk the talk, and partially it's that nurse believing that nurse managers hear for me.

Carol Pehotsky:

Right. Right.

Nancy M. Albert:

She or he gets it.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

She or he understands. They hear what I'm saying and they're willing to continue the conversation.

Carol Pehotsky:

Well, and let's face it there in any organization, and not just in healthcare, there are times where there's a message that I have to deliver that the leader has to deliver that maybe they're not super excited about. Right. It's even one of my interview questions, (laughs) that I, that I ask people for examples of when they've had that in their leadership journey. Because it's, if it hasn't happened to you yet, it will. And sometimes it's that vulnerability to, if I'm, if I'm the receiver of that statement or the FAQs, is, is do I have a place where I can go to, to another leader, to my leader to say, before I go talk to my caregivers about this, you know, here's some of the questions I think they're going to ask me that I don't see on the FAQs.

Or can you help me understand a little bit more about this so that I can wrap my brain around it psychologically versus I've said the words, but I'm rolling my eyes while I'm saying them. Or all my body language is conveying that I had no part of this, nor do I want part of it. Right. People pick up on that right away.

And then I think your, your point is, is beautifully made about, you don't have to have the answers. You certainly shouldn't say, I disagree with this, but when those caregivers come up with this, what about this? Or, or can we do this or that? It's a, I don't know, let's write them down.

I, let's go talk to my leader, to the people who created the C. Sometimes the opportunity for feedback has passed, but at least in raising the question, maybe we can understand it a little bit better.

Nancy M. Albert:

Right. And also, that nurse manager, by talking with other people, can figure out who the right navigator is.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yes.

Nancy M. Albert:

So it may not be them and it's okay to say, I know nothing about this, but you know, I know the person who's over digital health, or I know the person over informatics, or I know the person I, I know somebody we could connect with in clinical engineering who could help us out. So yeah.

Carol Pehotsky:

It all comes down to relationships.

Nancy M. Albert:

It does. Relationships and knowing where your resources are and knowing who you could go to talk to or how you can find the person. Because not all of us know everybody.

Carol Pehotsky:

No.

Nancy M. Albert:

I certainly don't. I've been working here a long time, and I still don't know people, but I know how to find the keywords and go into Google or go into our directory and search and figure it out.

Carol Pehotsky:

Absolutely. Any other parting thoughts on this topic?

Nancy M. Albert:

Yeah, I would say, we already mentioned a few of them. But circling back to close the loop is really important. Making sure we clarify what the person's really asking or what they're stating so that we understand clearly what's going on. Thinking about priorities, and again, sharing that with the nurse who's made question.

Carol Pehotsky:

Because we don't understand priorities. Sure.

Nancy M. Albert:

That's right.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

So, it's maybe at the top of the nurse's list but it's at the bottom of the nurse manager's list. And maybe it's important for the nurse to hear that it's at the bottom of my list now.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yes.

Nancy M. Albert:

But I'm happy that it's at the top of your list. And maybe you could help me. So again, drawing that person's in, making them feel that they're part of this solution. And I think that's really important. And then of course the age old, did we understand the problem correctly? Right. So going backwards, so we're, we're going backward from the solution back to the problem.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

So, do we understand the problem and are we responding authentically? So those are the I think the clear messages we've really tried to cover in this last period of time.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah. We can't be ev again. Oftentimes as a leader, we feel like we have to be everything to everyone. We can't, but we can be is last time we talked about the humanness of the patient, now it's the humanness of those who we lead. Or if I'm a nurse, the humanist of my manager at acknowledging that we're all coming at this from different vantage points.

If we're really passionate about that thing, we have to find that commonality and work together.

Nancy M. Albert:

Yeah. And I think the other thing for me is, and maybe again it's my half glass full mentality. But you want to come at it with positivity.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

Right? It's easy to be negative, I can't do this.

Carol Pehotsky:

Right.

Nancy M. Albert:

I don't have time; my budget won't allow. But how do we come across it with, with positivity? Okay. So maybe my budget won't allow for me to purchase five of something, but maybe it will allow me to purchase one of something that we share.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

So again, you know, how can we come up with solutions and take that positive spin versus just making negative statements. 

Carol Pehotsky:

Right.

Nancy M. Albert:

And so, I think we need to help our nurse managers figure out, and maybe they need some role playing in how to stop for a moment, think about what's going on, and then react and respond versus just jumping in and, and responding.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yes.

Nancy M. Albert:

And maybe not putting out the response that really is gonna help the nurse.

Carol Pehotsky:

Meet them where they're at.

Nancy M. Albert:

Yeah, exactly. And make them feel like they're a valuable part of the team and they should be speaking up.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yes.

Nancy M. Albert:

Because we want nurses to speak up.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yes. We're counting on it. Yes.

Nancy M. Albert:

Not only are we counting on it, but I can't remember who told me this a long time ago, and maybe it's something I read because of the book I work out with leadership. But somebody said to me once, you know, people as managers and leaders generally, like when the waters are smooth and there's no, no waves, right?

Carol Pehotsky:

Sure.

Nancy M. Albert:

Because it makes our life easy. But we should be grateful and almost thank the person who comes up and is always questioning things, asking for something new asking why we're doing something we're doing.

Because that diversity is what helps us all grow and develop and helps take us out of the box, we're in today and move forward in terms of what we do as nurses, what we do as leaders, what we do is in terms of growing our profession.

If everybody just sat there and took on the status quo and nobody was no boats would move; no oars would be rowing. And that would put us in a really ugly spot in terms of our profession.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

So, what we do need to do is, as leaders and especially as nurse managers, be thankful for the people who are raising comments, asking questions, willing to be vocal and speak up. Because we all know that there's nurses who will never do that.

Carol Pehotsky:

Right.

Nancy M. Albert:

I'm not gonna rock the boat. I don't want the nurse manager to think this about me or that about me. So, the people who are not afraid to do it can help everybody get better, I think.

Carol Pehotsky:

Absolutely. Beautifully said. Well, with that, we'll transition to the end of our time together. It's the speed round time.

Nancy M. Albert:

Okay.

Carol Pehotsky:

So, we want to get to know a little bit more about you. We heard about how you like to unwind last time and what brought you joy. Uh, this time, I'd like to ask you, what's the best advice you've ever received?

Nancy M. Albert:

Ah, the best advice I've ever received. I have to think about this a little bit. I receive a lot of advice. I try to listen to it. I, you know, I think the best advice I, I receive, and I constantly need to work on this, so it's something in the forefront of my mind a lot, is I need to always improve my listening skills. I, listening is so much more important than speaking.

Carol Pehotsky:

Wow. Mm-hmm.

Nancy M. Albert:

And I've learned over time that the more I listen and really understand the broader picture how much more beneficial that is. And sometimes I think I jump in early.

Carol Pehotsky:

It's your innovative brain.

Nancy M. Albert:

Yeah. Yeah. And, and my brain doesn't want to stop. It is true. And so sometimes I have to force myself to sit back and wait. And it's actually a good thing. So, I think it, that was really good advice I got a long time ago and it's really helped me out.

Carol Pehotsky:

Wonderful. And if you weren't a nurse, what would you be?

Nancy M. Albert:

Oh, that's a good question. Well, when I was little, I wanted to be an astronaut.

Carol Pehotsky:

Oh.

Nancy M. Albert:

But thank God I'm not. Because it turns out that, you know, my first flight was when I was 18.

Carol Pehotsky:

Right.

Nancy M. Albert:

And my first boat ride, I was an adult and went on a cruise after I got married. And in both times, I found out I get seasick.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

So, I wouldn't do well being an astronaut, I don't think gravity. I think I need to be on my feet on the ground.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

But I think if I could be anything, I think I would stick with being a nurse. People always ask me, why didn't you become a doctor? Why didn't you do this?

Carol Pehotsky:

Yeah.

Nancy M. Albert:

Why didn't you do that? And I actually love the way nurses work with, interact with, connect with patients, and with each other. And I think I'm in the right spot of where I should be

Carol Pehotsky:

Nothing wrong with that at all. And I think you are as well. Thank you so much for joining us again today.

Nancy M. Albert:

Thanks so much for having me, Carol. Really loved being here.

Carol Pehotsky:

As always, thanks so much for joining us for today's discussion. Don't miss out. Subscribe to hear new episodes wherever you get your podcasts. And remember, we want to hear from you. Do you have ideas for future podcasts or want to share your stories? Email us at nurseessentials@ccf.org. To learn more about nursing at Cleveland Clinic, please check us out at clevelandclinic.org/nursing. Until next time, take care of yourselves and take care of each other.

The information in this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only and does not constitute medical or legal advice. Consult your local state boards of nursing for any specific practice questions.