Nurse Retention: Creating a Culture of Committed Caregivers

Podcast Transcript

Carol Pehotsky:

It's never been a better time to be a nurse. There are so many different options that we have as nurses to go to different locations to try different specialties. The world is truly our oyster. But in the midst of that, where do we find connections and places to belong? As bedside caregivers and leaders, how do we really help embrace each other to make sure that we find a good fit? That retention isn't just something we measure in a survey, but it's something people feel that they're part of, something that they feel recognized and supported. Nursing retention has always been important, but never more important than it is these days. And with that, I'm so happy to welcome Josalyn Meyer today, Clinical Nurse Specialist at Main Campus of Cleveland Clinic, to talk more about nurse retention.

Hi, and welcome to Nurse Essentials, a Cleveland Clinic podcast where we discuss all things nursing from patient care to advancing your career, to navigating tough on the job issues. We're so glad you're here. I'm your host, Carol Pehotsky, associate Chief Nursing Officer of Surgical Services Nursing.

Welcome back everyone. Yet another very important topic for today's podcast. We're talking about nursing and nursing retention. You know, reflecting on the rollercoaster ride of the past several years. And I'm knocking on wood lightly, but not loud enough to interrupt this recording, not just here at Cleveland Clinic, but I've heard from colleagues from the country and from you, that things are starting to get better. We're not where we were in '21 and '22 in terms of what staffing looked like for us. Independent of where or specialty, it's been a road. As we're starting slowly to turn that corner away from heavy reliance on our agency colleagues, it's so important to create places and spaces where nurses don't just come; they want to stay.

I'm here with my friend and expert Josalyn Meyer. Josalyn is the Clinical Nursing Director for one of our Main Campus areas. Josalyn, I'm so glad to have you today. Thanks for joining me.

Josalyn Meyer:

Thanks. I'm so excited to be here, Carol.

Carol Pehotsky:

You have a wealth of expertise in retention, but first I hope you'll humor me and tell our audience a little bit about your nursing journey.

Josalyn Meyer:

Sure. I'd be happy too. This past July, I just hit 20 years as a nurse,

Carol Pehotsky:

Which is crazy because you're like 25.

Josalyn Meyer:

I have no idea how that happened. It was overnight at the time. It just moves so fast. And when you're having fun, I guess that's what they say, right? <laugh>. But I knew from a very young age that I wanted to be a nurse, and there was really no other question for me. This is just what I was going to do. And I come from a very strong background of nurses in my family.

Carol Pehotsky:

Oh, really?

Josalyn Meyer:

Yes. I have nurses in my family working all over the state of Ohio. So that was just a very natural progression for me. Right out of high school, I went to Bowling Green State University in Bowling Green, Ohio. I obtained my BSN there. And the climate of nursing at the time when I graduated was much like it is today, right? There was a lot of need for nurses,

Carol Pehotsky:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Josalyn Meyer:

And I knew that I wanted to come home. So, Cleveland, Ohio was my home. It's where I grew up and I knew it's where I wanted to be after graduation. I had the opportunity to look at multiple different places, and I ended up choosing here, the Cleveland Clinic, as a brand-new grad nurse. I started in cardiology step down. And the reason that I chose the Cleveland Clinic and chart cardiology step down was not really because of the patient population, but because of the nurse leader that I interviewed with.

Carol Pehotsky:

Okay. All right.

Josalyn Meyer:

She was dynamic.

Carol Pehotsky:

It feels like an important point we'll come back to.

Josalyn Meyer:

She was dynamic, energetic, and I really thought to myself, this nurse leader's going to push me, and I think that this is going to be a great place for me to grow.

Carol Pehotsky:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Josalyn Meyer:

So here I started, and I got a tap on the shoulder from that nurse leader a few years into my career for an opportunity as an assistant nurse manager.

Carol Pehotsky:

All right.

Josalyn Meyer:

Leadership was never something in my book, this is what I'm going to do. And I just thought, okay, it's an opportunity, let's take it. So, I said, sure, let's go for it. And I progressed as an assistant nurse manager in cardiology step down a few years after that, I got the opportunity to be a nurse manager in the same area where I grew up as a brand-new nurse. Then I progressed to an assistant director. And I've been in the director role for around eight years, believe it or not.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yes, that sounds about right.

Josalyn Meyer:

Yes, it's been a wild ride. In between that time, I was able to get my nurse executive certification as well as my master's degree from Grand Canyon University.

Carol Pehotsky:

Nice.

Josalyn Meyer:

Yes. It's been a wild fun ride.

Carol Pehotsky:

<laugh>, <laugh>. So, we'll get into the good stuff in a second. What so impresses me about you, Josalyn, is that you grew up in a cardiac area, but you're not a director of cardiology or cardiac surgery. You're in a whole different clinical area. Can you tell us a little bit about where you are and really that transition and learning new specialties and supporting leaders and caregivers in different parts of the Clinic?

Josalyn Meyer:

Yes. Again, that's something that I never expected either <laugh>.  I tend to always be a yes girl. I don't say no to challenges or opportunities because you never know where it's going to lead you. So, being my yes girl, it has taken me to different specialties such as endocrine, general internal medicine, urology and kidney medicine and cancer, most recently. And all of those, I'm not that clinical expert, but I have taken the time to really dive in and learn so that I can at least understand and ask those right questions. It's important to me to surround myself with experts and I have amazing colleagues in the nursing world, in the non-nursing world that I lean on and value their opinion. It's a true collaborative effort.

Carol Pehotsky:

Well, and you think about, so, audience members, those of you with some form of leadership aspiration or not, because similarly, I wasn't going to be leader either. And look at us now, <laugh>, but you know, CNOs haven't had every type of experience. It's really about being open to the opportunity, and you don't have to have a certain path to become a director, or a CNO, or nurse manager. It's about that willingness to try something different.

Josalyn Meyer:

Absolutely, and I learned to listen. Really listen and trust those around you. It took me a little bit to get there, but I feel like I do a decent job now of asking that right question. What's that right question to get you the information that you need to be able to make those decisions.

Carol Pehotsky:

That's an episode in itself. <laugh>.

Josalyn Meyer:

Yes. <laugh>

Carol Pehotsky:

We'll head back for that one because it’s a whole other aspect. Both within the natural ebb and flow of your role and your progression, as well as some of the work you've done for our organization, you've really dug in deep around retention. Not just nurses, but nursing. So, we'll start with why it is important. Why should it be a priority now above so many other priorities that we have in healthcare?

Josalyn Meyer:

Yes, so nurse retention means more than just the RNs.

Carol Pehotsky:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Josalyn Meyer:

It encompasses all those different caregivers that touch those patients. I could name a few, like LPNs, nursing assistants, et cetera. And it is so important because it's really a different world.

There are so many opportunities when you become a nurse, or you want to get into the healthcare field. When I graduated 20 years ago, I needed to go to the bedside and put my time in there to get that experience, to move on to other things. Now it's not always a requirement. There are just so many options there.

When we have our nurses in place, whether you're a nurse that's been there 5, 10, 15 years, or you're a brand-new nurse, retaining them either within that same unit population or within your organization is so important. I can't tell you how devastating it can be when a nurse leaves or for good reasons or not, or even when they retire, the amount of knowledge that walks out that door.  We're not going to get that back anytime soon.

So, retaining them, allowing them to help develop our new team, new nurses that come on, just help with ensuring good quality outcomes for our patients. I think there is so much research out there, the more experienced you are as a nurse, the better outcomes you can have for our patients. And that's really what we're all about, producing that outcome.

Carol Pehotsky:

It's a great point. If you are any nurse, whether you're a new grad or not, it's never been a better job market wise. The world is your oyster. Knowing how important retention is, how do you really emphasize that even in the hiring conversations? How can leaders really convey to that nurse who has lots of different opportunities, what the unit's like, how it's retained their leaders, what's in it for that caregiver's future and not just the now?

Josalyn Meyer:

Yes. When I think of engaging that potential new nurse, it really starts before that first interview that you have.

Carol Pehotsky:

Sure.

Josalyn Meyer:

Really, it starts with how the organization is presenting itself. What's available at my fingertips with social media? What is that presence like?

Carol Pehotsky:

Sure. Yes.

Josalyn Meyer:

What are those stories that are being told, right? Really, you know, having that first impression be positive.

And then when they come in and they interview that first time with your nurse manager, what does that look like? How did that feel? Can I talk with them? Did they give me their attention? That relationship starts immediately there. And you have that first impression within like a minute or something, and you want to work hard to make sure you're making that connection.

I really think that is one of the things that can make or break, you know? Even just getting someone in the door is those first impressions and that quick touch relationship, if you will.

Carol Pehotsky:

Well, I heard recently Press Ganey talking about one of the keys to retention they've found over the years, the longer time you spend in an interview, it’s a better selection for both parties and the longer somebody can stay with the organization because they really get to see what the unit is like. So, knowing that some of our listeners are bedside nurses, sometimes you're going to have that peer interview or that shadow.

Josalyn Meyer:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Carol Pehotsky:

How can any of us at the bedside really convey how we feel about the unit and what's being done for our retention to that new hire?

Josalyn Meyer:

Yes, that is definitely our process. When someone comes in and does interview, we ask them to shadow. And we don't make it like a 15-minute shadow <laugh>, like, here's surface level, here's where the bathroom is. We want them to spend as much time as they wish because as much as they need to get a feel for our team and the environment, we're doing the same thing as well. It's a two-way street there. And picking the right person, right?

We want someone who's going to be truthful, who's going to be honest, but who's also going to be positive about all the things that our team offers. And I think, again, being very transparent during this interview process, you have to know what you're getting into, right? You don't want to be told one thing and then you start and it's a different story. I think that's an obvious way to lose nurses pretty quickly. So being transparent, truthful, and very positive about all the wonderful things that we offer.

Carol Pehotsky:

Any of us can have bad days. It's really that also that frankness of today's not a good day to have a shadow <laugh>. Really being able to know yourself enough to say my assignment is not great. I want this candidate to have the best experience. And maybe that's not me today.

Josalyn Meyer:

Absolutely. Just being very upfront and honest, and I've also changed my approach over the years as well. In the past, I would wait for the thank you from the candidate to thank me for interviewing them. Now I go after them and say thank you for your time.

Carol Pehotsky:

Sure.

Josalyn Meyer:

Because honestly, there's a lot of options out there. So, if you're going to take the time to meet with me, I'm grateful and thankful.

Carol Pehotsky:

And so yes. Absolutely. That first touchpoint is so important, but it has to, like you said, be part of transparency and it can't just be, well this team was great when I interviewed, but I walked in the door and it's a whole different environment. Every day, past day one is an opportunity to retain a nurse. What are some of the biggest factors that influence nurse retention?

Josalyn Meyer:

When I think about one of the biggest factors of retention efforts and retaining nurses at the bedside or any role that they're in, I think of a few things. One of the things is the relationship. Does that nurse have a relationship with their direct leader? Do they know who they are? Do they meet with them regularly? Are they getting feedback? Do they know what the resources are? Do they feel supported? I mean, those are all very good questions that you need to ask yourself, not only as a leader, but as a caregiver. Is this the right fit for me?

Carol Pehotsky:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Josalyn Meyer:

And then relationships with other people as well. What does that look like with different support to nursing? Is it positive with the nurse and provider relationship? I think that's really important.

Carol Pehotsky:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Josalyn Meyer:

Is it positive that with other resources we have, like our nursing education team, are people approachable? What does that look like? Another thing that I think really influences nurse retention is work life balance or work life integration. I don't know, there are a lot of words for it now.

Carol Pehotsky:

Life efficiency - oh, okay.

Josalyn Meyer:

I haven't heard that one yet. But we are all just it's our first time living, right. I think? <laugh>.

Carol Pehotsky:

I think so <laugh>.

Josalyn Meyer:

We need to meet people where they're at the best that we can. So, it's important to me as a leader to know what is important to you and how I can meet you there. I may not be able to do it a hundred percent of the time, but maybe I can make some tweaks here and there. And I can get you what you need, whether it's time off to attend the cousin's wedding, or if you want to attend a conference and develop your skills in med surg, nursing, whatever it is, let's try to meet halfway and work together again. Go back to that relationship.

Carol Pehotsky:

And that can change. What I need as a nurse in year one is probably going to change in year two and year five, et cetera. It's a commitment to that ongoing conversation probably.

Josalyn Meyer:

Absolutely. Yes. Really frequent check-ins, frequent touch points, right?

Carol Pehotsky:

Yes. So how can the team help? Leaders are very important. Again, I love your story about they can sell a person on, do I want to even walk this door or not? But the team itself is also so important with retention of the team members. What are the factors in the team that can help? Certainly, relationships are one of them. And how can the team either erode retention or release support and supplement and aid retention?

Josalyn Meyer:

I think one of the concepts that really support from the team aspect regarding retention is shared governance concepts.

Carol Pehotsky:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Josalyn Meyer:

We're a Magnet organization here, which we are so proud of. And one of the major concepts of a Magnet hospital is shared governance. That means we all truly have a voice, right? And so, we see such successes on different units with their shared governance councils, and then you look at their retention rate. If they have a great shared governance council, probably 9.8 times out of 10, they have strong retention.

Carol Pehotsky:

Sure.

Josalyn Meyer:

And it's because it allows a voice, right? Allows a voice for change, allows a voice for growth, allows a voice to work on things that are incredibly important to that specific team. And that's not the same from unit to unit, from area to area. So, it's really caregiver led, frontline led, and leader supported, if you will. And I think that really means and speaks highly to those different retention efforts across those units.

Carol Pehotsky:

Well, and I think about even my own career and retention doesn't always mean I get to do what I want, or things go my way. So, how can teams and leaders really help each other evolve in that retention and sometimes it's a compromise. It isn't always exactly what I'm looking for.

Josalyn Meyer:

I think the team can help when you have different things that maybe someone doesn't agree with or someone doesn't understand, I think the team then can help with that conversation of how does this apply to me? Why is this meaningful? Why is this important? Why is this a priority? Sometimes even just talking through that and understanding why the decisions are made or why we have different policies in place can help with that buy-in and then understanding which then helps with that satisfaction and ultimately leads to retention.

Carol Pehotsky:

Sure. If you're a listener who's considering a change, I think sometimes we hear from nurses saying, well, I didn't like the schedule or I was sick of doing X, Y, and Z. And audience, I think we'd both invite you to dig a little deeper. Is that a strong enough reason to go? Yes, the schedule's important, of course. What else is going on because sometimes it's just different grass.

Josalyn Meyer:

Yes.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yes. You're working straight days, but did you leave something really fantastic for a schedule and not necessarily something that was going to fill your soul?

Josalyn Meyer:

I always like to tell people, look at what's out there, right? The grass may not always be greener. It may be a different shade of green, but it might not always be greener. That's a decision that you have to make. But hopefully before you get to that point, there's some open dialogue and that you have a leader that will listen.

Carol Pehotsky:

Great point. Coming from the perioperative specialty, we've noticed over the years that nurses who had other experience who came to the OR specifically. You could almost tell that they maybe hadn't really dug a little deeper because about 50% of those nurses for several years, it's trending differently now, but especially for the first five or six years I was able to lead that department about 50% of those nurses went back to where they came from because they were leaving for a schedule or leaving from a frustration versus doing that work to say, should I have stayed? There were other things going on. They stayed in the organization, but really retaining into what your heart feels.

Josalyn Meyer:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Carol Pehotsky:

A lot happens in, especially that new grad's first year there's residency, knowing that can look at lots of different ways across the country. Certainly, at our organization, there are touch points throughout that first year. They really are aimed at that nurse's success. But then you get to year 1.1 and on and supports are different. What should organizations and leaders and nurses really be looking to really say, you made it through the first year and that's awesome. We want you to spend many more years with us to make sure that that nursing caregiver still feels supported past the end of year one.

Josalyn Meyer:

Yes. I think that is so important. There's so much emphasis, like you said in that year one, but what about year two plus, right? I think the one thing that our organization does well is providing different resources based on your interest. We have this great tool that is called a career track,

Carol Pehotsky:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Josalyn Meyer:

And it gives you essentially a blueprint for different things that I can do, experience, classes I can take, articles I can read based on whatever that career track specialty is. So, something like leadership, something like a clinical specialty. So, moving into my nurse practitioner role or nursing education or becoming a pro in place.

Carol Pehotsky:

Yes. [You know?] Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Josalyn Meyer:

When we think of what's next, it doesn't always mean that you have to go back to school. Or you have to get an advanced degree, or you have to leave the unit that you're on. You can become a true pro in place.

Carol Pehotsky:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Josalyn Meyer:

And the impact that you can make is tremendous. So that's even part of the career track there and making sure our caregivers at year one, plus, know where these tools are found and how to access them.

For us as leaders, I think it's so important that we allow the time and space for that to be explored. I would never want someone who wants to grow and develop has to do it on their own time. That should be worked in some way throughout the year, part of their goals that we can really touch on and work on together.

Carol Pehotsky:

Well, and it's a great point about making sure everybody knows about them because they think about all the conversations that they're having in the nursing unit that aren't involving the nurse manager about staying, going, looking for roles. If one of the people in that conversation, at least one can say, did you know about this or have you talked to our nurse manager about this? That can plant that seed for that individual.

Josalyn Meyer:

Absolutely. I mean the resources are very rich and most of them are electronic, and it takes a couple clicks to get there. Once you know, it's pretty easy. But again, when you don't know, you don't know. So, it just takes that one person to say, check this out. And then hopefully it can grow from there.

Carol Pehotsky:

Here at Cleveland Clinic, we're very blessed to be part of a large organization. Each hospital has a retention council and then we have an enterprise retention council. And you've been heavily involved in both throughout your leadership journey. Can you tell us a little bit about what those groups have been like and what's come out of those groups?

Josalyn Meyer:

Yes, so I was part of the Enterprise Retention Council, and I led the nurse manager retention council for many years. I've since passed the torch to one of my colleagues. However, I still have a focus on retention with one of our hospital's OKRs, or goals, if you will. Focusing on nurse and caregiver retention within the nursing world.

These teams are truly dynamic. And they have the support of every level leadership throughout the enterprise. Ideas are, are generated, best practices are discussed, you know, literature review is done, and we really take all those ideas and try to put them into action.

And I can tell you the support for any effort is there. Whether it's financial support or support with resources or time or energy. The support is there. The organization is truly remarkable in that respect.

Carol Pehotsky:

Well, yes. And, coming down to dollars and cents, retaining a nurse and putting a little money in that is a lot more affordable than hiring another one, training another one and ending up in that cycle.

Josalyn Meyer:

Oh yes. I just read a recent article, and I think the new dollar amount of onboarding a new nurse is something between $60 and $70,000, which is just incredible. Imagine being able to save that and reinvesting those dollars into something else that can really support our profession and our patients.

Carol Pehotsky:

We've heard a lot internally and, and I've seen it also out there in the media in terms of retention and recognition.

Josalyn Meyer:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Carol Pehotsky:

And appreciating that there is no one size fits all either. What are some things that nurses should be advocating for if they're not getting that individualized recognition or attention that they need to feel supported and what should leaders be thinking about?

Sometimes I might be leading a hundred people. How on earth do I customize this? Do I individualize this? But also help each of those nurses and nursing caregivers know that I care about them?

Josalyn Meyer:

I think that's a tricky one because you're right, recognition is not one size fits all and what I like and prefer may not be anything what you like and prefer. I really think there are two things here. So, I really think that nurse leader, knowing their team and just asking that question, what does this look like for you? What does this look like for our team?

Shared governances can also be incredibly impactful in that respect. Do they lead employee of the month voting or do they do call outs at daily huddles? What does that look like? And that would really need to come from the team.

The other aspect is your own way that you want that recognition. Sometimes just thinking through that and reflecting. Maybe I would like to be called out at a town hall with a thousand people and have my name on the screen and that's fine. Maybe I do like that. But there's recognition that can come in many ways.

So, sometimes reflecting and taking a step back. Maybe it was an email from a colleague that said, thanks, that was awesome. Or it was a patient that said, you really made my day. Those are all pretty powerful recognitions and really taking that to heart and not just sitting back and waiting for that big grand recognition to happen.

Carol Pehotsky:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Well, and both can be, you don't have to wait for somebody else to do it. You can recognize your colleagues. Boy, it was a tough shift. Thank you so much. Let me buy you a coffee. Let me just say thank you. Let me send you a note. There are so many ways we can be supporting each other along with how our leaders are supporting us.

Josalyn Meyer:

I agree. As a leader myself, I love to recognize others. I love to call it out. I feel like I do it often. I would like to probably do it more, but I do it in a variety of ways because again, I know not one size fits all. It's the same way for me, I learn by teaching, and so I think I fill my cup by recognizing.

Carol Pehotsky:

Sure. Sometimes I think people get hung up on it. It has to be this grand recognition, this grand retention. But sometimes the littlest things can make a great start to our day. Do you mind telling us a little bit more about the pop-ups and the research you've done around that?

Josalyn Meyer:

Oh, the popups we love, we love the popups. This started before COVID, believe it or not. We were in a retention recognition council meeting, and we were talking about recognition. And an idea was generated where it was like just a pop-up boutique or a pop-up concert. They just take you by surprise. The conversation kept going and we ended up with a pop-up celebration, <laugh>. And this was a celebration for all caregivers, and we really rallied our nurse leaders. Everyone really bought into it. And we popped up just like that.

Carol Pehotsky:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Josalyn Meyer:

We set up in a very high traffic area where our caregivers come in and out for the day. We had treats, we had fun signs, and we had nurse leaders there who were recognizing our caregivers, sending them on their way, home after a long night shift or welcoming them in. We found some great satisfaction. It was very impactful. We also found some people who maybe didn't like such energy at the start of your shift.

Carol Pehotsky:

I participated in a couple of them. It's very clear. It's like, oh, no. Not the right audience. Have a good day. <laugh>.

Josalyn Meyer:

Yes. We wanted to really look at this, and we did some research on it. We did a very large survey. We're in the process of writing and trying to get it published. But what we found is that recognition in the form of a pop-up celebration is not one size fits all.

Carol Pehotsky:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Josalyn Meyer:

A lot of lessons learned. However, this concept has really continued to grow and we do it in different ways now. And it maybe not such a grand entrance but a surprise recognition, something that you don't expect, I think can really go a long way and make people's day.

Carol Pehotsky:

At the end of it all, retention is something that I can be part of as a leader, as a caregiver, to make sure that I'm sharing the joy of being part of this team.

Josalyn Meyer:

Absolutely. It starts with you. It doesn't end with me, right? <laugh> It's an everyone in between and it's truly a team effort.

Carol Pehotsky:

Awesome. Well, you've shared so many great tips and tricks and nuggets with our audience today. Before we let you go, I'd love it if you'd answer a few fun questions for me so they can get to know you as an amazing human being, as well as a subject matter expert. We'll rewind it back to being a brand-new nurse. What's something you wish you knew when you were a brand-new nurse?

Josalyn Meyer:

I think something that I wish I knew is that not every day is going to be perfect, not every day I'm going to feel like I really made a difference. But at the end of the day, you really do. If I show up to work, I bring that good attitude. I am making a difference, building that resiliency. Being able to come back, give it your all, and I think it's okay. It's okay to walk away, maybe not feel the best.

Carol Pehotsky:

Sure.

Josalyn Meyer:

But just put that big smile on and come back the next day and try harder.

Carol Pehotsky:

That's right. And this might end up being related, but this year at the Clinic, we've talked a lot about the power of purpose.

Josalyn Meyer:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Carol Pehotsky:

And so, I'm hoping you'll share with our audience what's your why.

Josalyn Meyer:

Yes. I have two why's. One is the patients that we serve. It's amazing what we do here at the Cleveland Clinic and just in general in nursing. We truly have such an impact on people's lives, whether we feel like we do or not. I think it was Maya Angelou that said they may not remember you, but they'll remember how you made them feel. That's right. I really try to live that. The second part of my why is the caregivers that I lead.

Carol Pehotsky:

Hmm.

Josalyn Meyer:

I really take servant leadership concepts to heart. And it was something that I really grew up with, and I didn't have a name for it until I became a formal leader here. And I was like, oh yes. Being a servant leader, putting others' needs ahead of mine, leading the charge. Their win is my win; their loss is my loss. And so, I really live by that every day.

Carol Pehotsky:

And it's very clear to those you lead and serve.

Josalyn Meyer:

Oh, thank you.

Carol Pehotsky:

All right. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Josalyn Meyer:

Appreciate it.

Carol Pehotsky:

As always, thanks so much for joining us for today's discussion. Don't miss out. Subscribe to hear new episodes wherever you get your podcasts. And remember, we want to hear from you. Do you have ideas for future podcasts or want to share your stories? Email us at Nurseessentials@ccf.org.

To learn more about nursing at Cleveland Clinic, please check us out at clevelandclinic.org/nursing.

Until next time, take care of yourselves and take care of each other.

The information in this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only and does not constitute medical or legal advice. Consult your local state boards of nursing for any specific practice questions.