Working With Gen Z Colleagues

Podcast Transcript

Dr. James K. Stoller:

Hello and welcome to MedEd Thread, a Cleveland Clinic education podcast that explores the latest innovations in medical education and amplifies the tremendous work of our educators across the enterprise.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Hello. Welcome to today's episode of MedEd Thread, an education podcast exploring how a greater understanding of Generation Z is important in becoming a more effective leader and educator through building stronger connections with young people. I'm your host, Dr. Tony Tizzano, director of Student and Learner Health, here at Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio. Today I am very pleased to have Brian Polian, Vice President for Athletics and National Engagement in John Carroll University and a 25 year veteran of coaching college football at the highest levels here to join us. Brian, welcome to today's podcast.

Brian Polian:

Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to be with you.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Perfect. If you could get us started, Brian, by telling us a little bit about yourself, your educational background, what brought you to Cleveland and your role at John Carroll University.

Brian Polian:

Sure. In the way that an army brat moves all over the country, I was a football brat, so my dad, Bill Polian, is enshrined in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. He was an executive in the National Football League for over 30 years. I grew up around the game. He was a college coach, actually, when I was born. And so I was very fortunate from a very young age, I knew exactly what it is that I wanted to do. I wanted to coach, I wanted to work with young people. And so I, again, have moved all over the country, but called Buffalo, New York my home. Spent about 10 years in two different stints, living in western New York, and at that time picked John Carroll, was a student athlete, but again, always knew that I was gonna get into coaching and, and serving young people. And that started a 25 year journey, that, two weeks after I graduated and walked across the stage in University Heights, Ohio to receive my diploma, two weeks later, I was a graduate assistant for Nick Saban at Michigan State University.

And that kicked off a 25 year journey that included stops at the University of Buffalo, Central Florida, two five year stints at Notre Dame, Stanford, Texas, A&M, LSU. I was the head coach at the University of Nevada for four years. So I, I had a very, I would call by and large successful career, enjoyed it a great deal, but like it happens to everybody. You have children, you have a family, your concerns, your priorities start to adjust.

I have a child with special needs, and he was struggling in Louisiana when we were down at LSU and my wife and I decided that we needed to make a change. And about that time, my alma mater called because the athletic director's job was open at, at John Carroll University, and they actually called me looking for a recommendation. They wanted to see if there was somebody I, [Perfect.] yeah, I had, and my wife said, I got a guy, I got somebody they need to talk to. And so that brought me back. And years of organizational leadership and training around young people. I'm not with one program now. I'm with 25. I have 700 student athletes. But it's been a joy to be back at my alma mater and it, it has been better for my family.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Perfect. Thank you so much. So for our listeners, in today's segment, we'll explore how anyone in leadership and education can become more effective, draw valuable perspective, and build stronger connections with young people through a greater understanding of Generation Z. And you're thinking, why do we have a football coach with an illustrious career here to talk? Well, it was very clear to me in our first conversation that Gen Z are our medical students, our residents, our fellows. And the ability to interface with them in the best way possible is key. So Brian, if you could help frame today's topic by providing our listeners with some context around the importance of a greater understanding of Gen Z as it relates to education and leadership.

Brian Polian:

Absolutely. First of all, I didn't stumble into this topic. I discovered it because I literally felt the needs of the young people I was working with on a daily basis, shifting. I felt the dynamics, the family dynamics, the world around them, I felt everything shifting underneath their feet. And I just, this whole thing started with me saying, how can I be more effective as their coach, as their leader, as somebody to help guide them in their lives? And so when I started to focus in on this discussion, it became apparent that anybody in a leadership role needed to (A) acknowledge that if you're working with young people, they are changing and they're changing dramatically. And there's a lot of reasons for that, which I'm sure we'll discuss a little later on.

The other thing that became really apparent was if you want to be an effective educator, if you want to be an effective coach, if you want to be an effective leader and you are working with young people, you have to adjust. And if you can't adjust, you are simply not going to connect. And so it became more about, I grew up in a world where it was the coach and the student adjusted to the teacher, And the world we're in now, the leader, the coach, the teacher, the manager, has to have the self-awareness and frankly, the lack of ego to now adjust to the audience because that's the world that we live in right now.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Yeah. And for physicians, that becomes an even taller order, I can see. So who are we talking about? Who is Gen Z? What are they looking for? What are the differences?

Brian Polian:

Well, Gen Z's got some really defining characteristics. First and foremost, depending on what textbook you wanna read, it's 1995 to 2010 would be, you know, that cohort, they're born in that area. I think it's really important for me right now, because our entire college campus is Gen Z, right? Like every kid on our campus is technically Gen Z. When I started to really think about it though, especially as it relates to medicine, the fellows, the residents, you know, they are on the front lines of that Gen Z generation. Gen Z is the first one in the history of the United States, not to be majority white. So that is literally history making. They don't call themselves overtly religious in the way that my parents were and my grandparents were. I was raised in the Catholic church, I was baptized, first communion. Gen Z refers to themselves as spiritual.

They, they try to lead a faith-based life, but they don't talk about being overtly Jewish or overtly Catholic, overtly Muslim in the way that generations before them did. They view the use of marijuana safer than the use of alcohol. I mean, to me, that would've been [Fair.] I mean, in 1997 when I was a senior in college, that would've been a wild concept, right? The use of marijuana was taboo, but you could drink 16 draft beers out of a red solo cup, and nobody thought it <laugh> the least bit odd. The most fluid in their sexual identity, yet not very sexually active, don't know how to be intimate with one another. Because they've grown up not only through COVID, but they've grown up in a technology-based world where interaction comes down to emojis and short DMs and messages, as opposed to sitting down and having a conversation and learning how to put yourself out there a little bit. There are a lot of defining characteristics that make this group very unique in the way that we work with them.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Yeah. And that understanding, I can see where it becomes more and more important as we go on. And perhaps even for the leader to rise as far as they might potentially rise, that understanding becomes perhaps an imperative. So although likely misguided, what are some of the Gen Z stereotypes and your perspective on these?

Brian Polian:

Some are not as misguided as others. <laugh> the addiction to screens, they have grown up on screens, but the reality of it is they crave interpersonal interactions. So this thought that all Gen Z wants to do, stare at their phones, stare at their four or five different screens that they will have around them, a computer, a TV, a, an iPad. The reality of it is they crave interpersonal interaction. We just, I think sometimes they're afraid to establish it. Like we, we have to reach out to them.

There's this thought that Gen Z doesn't necessarily want to work real hard or they're constantly seeking the easiest path, they don't take instruction well, that's not necessarily true. It depends on how you go about it, right? The context matters, approach matters, style matters, but they're motivated and, and they wanna do well. It's just, it comes down to one basic tenant and is that everything when Gen Z's gotta start with relationships. And if you don't start there, you will find them fulfilling those stereotypes. It's not their fault, it's the fault of of the leader. Like it, it's gotta start with connections first.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

So learning how to give feedback appropriately to Gen Z can make a difference, can impact them in the way that you maybe hope. But if you haven't couched it properly.

Brian Polian:

Oh, I mean, giving feedback to Gen Z is, first of all, any leader's job, your job is to provide feedback, by the way, constructive feedback.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Correct.

Brian Polian:

Because if you're just a critic, you're snarky. Like that doesn't help anybody. Constructive criticism helps people improve. But yes, there are things that people don't think about. If you are giving praise to somebody from Gen Z and you want to double down and make sure that you get a lot of value for it, do it in front of their peers. They want to be celebrated publicly. They want to be celebrated in front of others.

If you have to make a a correction, if you need to give constructive criticism, then you need to do so privately because the minute you do it in front of other folks, you're gonna put them on the defensive and they're not gonna hear what you have to say. This whole thought of, well, it's their job to hear what's said and not necessarily how it's said? Certainly with this group, that's not the case.

Like we talk about a feedback sandwich, give me some positive, here's what needs to be corrected, and let's send you off on a positive note. Like older leaders, older executives, coaches, educators, they can roll their eyes at that because that's not how they came up that, you know, my dad didn't do it that way. My coach didn't do it that way. Doesn't matter. That's immaterial. Our goal is to be the most effective leaders we can be. And we know that this is the most effective way. So change.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Yep. Absolutely. Change. It's, it's a skill we need figure out how to get it.

Brian Polian:

Yeah.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

So you mentioned to me in an earlier conversation, Gen Z's, high regard for relationships and authenticity. Let's dive a little deeper into these two kind of important precepts, if you would, for us.

Brian Polian:

So everything starts with relationships and, and there's a term we use in athletics, it's called relationship guy, right? Like when an NFL scout would come in to, I'll, I'll give you an example, without using the name of the student athlete. We had a young man at Notre Dame. Father leaves early in his life, his mom and his aunt raise him. They are immigrants. So it's, it's a really tight-knit community. You take this 17-year-old young man, you put him at Notre Dame, he doesn't trust men, he hasn't been around a lot of white men in his life. He's been raised in a very isolated environment. And by the way, there's no shortage of middle aged white men walking around Notre Dame's campus, right? [Sure.] So you've taken this child who's still a child, and dropped him into a very different environment.

This young man, when he trusted everybody around him, when he was aligned, when he felt like everybody was looking out for his best interest, his talent, his personality, his energy, it, it was contagious and it was a joy to behold. The minute he got sideways with somebody, it would plummet. He's a completely different athlete, person, student. And so I would hear the NFL scouts come in and they would talk to the position coach and they would say, tell me about this guy. And the answer was, well, he is a relationship guy. When, when every, when he feels like everybody around him has got his back and he, he can trust them and he's heard, then everything's great. The minute he doesn't feel that it, it's, he's a completely different person.

Well, the reality of it is we are all quote unquote relationship guys. We all want to be heard. We want to be seen. We want to feel valued. We want to feel connected and feel part of a team. And anybody in leadership, no matter medical, business, education, coaching, athletics, whatever it is, to ignore that is professional malpractice. You can't be an effective leader if you can't connect and build relationships. That's the foundation of everything that we do.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Couldn't agree more. We all desire to be relevant at the end of the day. So previously, you and I had discussed the impact of the COVID pandemic on Gen Z students and you commented on its effect on your own professional trajectory. Can you share some of what we discussed with our listeners?

Brian Polian:

I think I made a mistake in the sense that I looked at the young people I was working with. I was at Notre Dame at the time. We bubbled up in June. We were the first ones to come back on the campus. And we really isolated the football program, the team, the coaches, the staff from the rest of the world. I mean, short of, we didn't interact with very many other people unless we were running into 'em with helmets and shoulder pads on <laugh>. So we got to the end of the year, we lost in the college football playoff. And I'm, I'm looking at these 18 to 23 year olds and I'm watching these young men sprint out of the locker room, fall into the arms of their mothers and fathers sobbing.

And it struck me like I really underestimated the impact that this was gonna have, 'cause I, you know, I looked at them like, they're kids, they're fine, they're resilient. They don't know any better, right? Like, who wants to see their mom and dad every weekend anyway? Like, you know, you're in college. But I really underestimated the impact that that was gonna have. And, and so there're gonna be textbooks written about the impact that COVID had, [For sure.] the social stunting. I see it with my own children, the academic stunting.

It was very impactful and it really changed my perspective as a coach that okay, we absolutely have to start with the human being first. And it also means that I have to treat the human being who's the best player, and the human being who is the 85th guy on the roster, the same. Because if we're starting with the human being first, the production that they provide to me as a coach shouldn't factor in. And watching that firsthand, kind of, I'm embarrassed to say I'd been in the business for 20 years at that point, but it changed the way I thought about things.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

I think we miss a lot of what COVID, we all looked at the illness and the fear and the, you know, morbidity associated with it. But my son who just missed it, getting outta college in in an electrical engineering program, said, had it hit him where his underlings, his classmates before him, he said, I would've left college. I couldn't have done it. I couldn't have missed the lab time. I couldn't have missed the internships that, you know, you didn't, what do you mean you didn't have an internship? How am I gonna hire you? I want to hear how you perform. It was a real social blow for students at that time. So we had talked also about the nuances of educating Gen Z and why it's important for leaders and educators to adjust to their unique needs and meet them where they live.

What are some of these nuances for the way they want to get information, process information so that we can be more effective?

Brian Polian:

Well, first and foremost, we have data that tells us that the average attention span 25 years ago was about 20 seconds in a young person. Now it's about 12. So in the marketing space, like what's that tell us? That tells us that you better make your impression very quickly because they're gonna move on from you. And I think it also tells us in a classroom setting, you better get to the point pretty quickly or better be breaking up the way that you set up your platform. The other thing that we've learned is that you better be fluent in technology. And for somebody like me, I'm 50 years old, I've never been good with, I know just enough. But Gen Z is fluent in technology. That's where they live. And if you can't meet them where they live, your chances of being an effective teacher lesson significantly.

I remember a time where I had an overhead projector in a meeting room, right? And not two years later I'm drawing with my finger on a screen that is projecting up onto a movie size. Even the thought of conversations that you and I would've thought, we are never gonna have this conversation via an email, a note. We are gonna sit and look each other in the eye, face to face. You can have a very meaningful and important conversation with a young person through a text message. And that, I was raised in a home where, hey, you sit across from the teacher, you look 'em in the eye. Like that's, but we have to get past our expectations and understand that that's the way they function. I've even seen the way that we adjusted our meeting rooms. And when we tell our audience meeting rooms and football think classroom.

So our classrooms at Notre Dame, we put big comfy chairs in the, in the front row. We had three rows of, of tables that were double width and a lot of room. And we purposely picked big chairs that had wheels. So if somebody felt a little antsy, they could rock. But in the back of the room, we put high top bar tables with no stools. And people looked and they're like, why'd you do that? 'cause we have some learners that just need to move around and I'm less concerned about their physical body posture. And I'm more concerned about, are they listening to me? Are they processing the information? If they're standing up and rocking back and forth, because that's what helps them in the learning environment, then I'm okay with that.

I went to an all boys Catholic high school in Buffalo, New York. If I had told Father Mark, Hey, I'm feeling frisky today, I am gonna walk around the back of the room while you teach theology, I would've gotten a wrap on the side of the head. But the world has changed. Yes. And if we don't adjust with it, we're not very effective.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

We have to be willing to scrap convention at times, [Yeah] I think. Any other thoughts in that area?

Brian Polian:

I think, again, in the educational setting, how can we get them working in a group setting, interacting? I think that is positive for a lot of reasons. It's socializing, it is forcing conversations. It is helping young people in a world that tells them they should all be individuals. Everything that they see, read, hear is about the individual. Anytime we can put them in groups and understand that there is great joy in being a part of a team and working for a collective good, I think is a very positive thing. And I think project-based learning is very important. I think doing is very important. Like, you know, the amount of time, this is a sports terminology, but walking through as opposed to just sitting in a classroom and lecturing, like, all right, let's go walk through this now and make sure that everybody's on the same page. And then, you know, lastly, they want to have fun. And it doesn't matter if it's at work, if it's in a learning environment. If it's drudgery, if we can't lighten the mood at some point, if we can't have people feel like it's okay to smile, then it, it, it's gonna be hard to connect.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

I hope that every educator out there is listening to this because this really resonates me with me. So what are some of the tools then, uh, and precepts needed to help ensure Gen Z success?

Brian Polian:

Well, it starts with you have to honor the relationship before you can ask them to honor a task. I mean, that's where the whole thing starts from. If we're gonna be more effective, then it's gotta start with relationships first. I think for people like me, again, 50 years old, I'm not old, but I'm not young. I'm kind of in betwixt and in between, if you are not hardwired to be a relationship person, like, Hey, I'm not warm and fuzzy, that's not who I am, then don't think about it that way. Be pragmatic. Your job is to get the best out of your people. If you are working with young people, we know that this is the best way to have them reach their potential. So it's my job to adjust. I may not be hardwired that way, but I'm the one that's gotta change.

And I think, you know, when you talk about, is there one thing that can kind of encapsulate working with Gen Z? I go back to the theory of two psychologists, Edward Deckey and Richard Ryan, who came up with the thought of self-determination. And that is, if any human being, specifically a young person, is going to reach their full potential they have to reach a point of self-determination. And those two brilliant men said, three things have to be present in order for that to be achieved. They have to be competent in what they're doing. They have to feel autonomous that they're in charge of their own journey and setting up their own goals. They have to be a part of healthy relationships.

So when I think about my job, my job is to teach my young people how to drive the car. They need to be competent at what they're doing. They need to feel autonomous and they need to be a part of healthy relationships. If I can do that, then I'm putting them in their position to be their best.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Very well said. You mentioned some other things which connected with me. You said, you know, it is important to be demanding, but we can't be demeaning. And at the same time we want them to learn to embrace adversity because it comes at us in many different ways. What do you mean by that?

Brian Polian:

So I wanna talk about adversity first. I mean, I literally talk to college kids in the same way I would talk to my 12-year-old. You can do hard things. You can do hard things and, and we can't be afraid of failure. We cannot be afraid. You know, the parenting of this generation's been a little bit different. We used to hear that the, the concept of the helicopter parent that hovers. We've had snowplow parents, they're out in front and they erase all the adversity before the child has to face it. So this thought of, you can do hard things and we talk about it all the time, but going back to be demanding without being demeaning, leaders are here to set high standards and hold people accountable. That's how we achieve, that's how we move forward.

I'm not gonna share with you who, but I've been consulting with a really high profile, high school nationally that is hiring a head football coach. We interviewed a candidate not long ago and I heard something that, I wrote it down the minute he said it, and it's better than be demanding without being demeaning. He said, big standards, big love. And that's how he runs his program. He has big standards and it comes with big love, big standards without love? It's just noise. It's just staying on people. Big love without big standards. I mean, we can care about people, but do we really care about 'em if we let them do whatever they want and there's no accountability, we're not preparing them for the world. So big standards, big love. The minute I heard that, I wrote it on the whiteboard in my office. I loved it.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

And I wrote it down as you said it because again, it's another one of those things that resonates. And it's okay. Sometimes you think, oh, to to be emotional about this or that or to care is a sign of weakness. I think not.

Another thing you mentioned to me that I loved, we talked about work life balance and do you remember what you said when you defined work life balance to me? <laugh>

Brian Polian:

Yeah, 'cause I say to every student that comes into my office talking about this. Gen Z's desire to be on cruise control is a result of the technological world they see. They look on Instagram reels and TikTok and they see people flying on private jets and doing all this stuff. I tell them the same thing. I've never met an exceptional person in my life, a high achiever that had 50/50 work life balance. It just doesn't exist. The exceptional people I have met in my life work their first 25 years like mad. So that when they get to their second 25 years, they can call their shot and live the way that they wanna live.

And the other trick to it, and I live this personally, is okay, I used to as a college football coach at a high level place, you'd work between 80 and 90 hours a week, seven days a week, go to work August 1st, not have another day off until January. How could I say to you, I'm, I have work life balance at that time? I don't. But what I do have is if, if that given week I'm with my family 30% of my time, then I'm gonna be present in that 30%. They're getting 100% of that 30. I'm putting my phone away. I'm gonna be where my feet are, and I'm gonna be with my wife and my kids in the time that I have. And then when I gotta go back and do my job, I'll do my job.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Well ladies and gentlemen, I, I always say if I could do one thing, just show me where the wisdom tree is so I can sit under it and shake it. <laugh> We just got to shake the wisdom tree.

So Brian, what lies on the horizon related to efforts around leading coaching and educating Gen Z individuals? What's the next step? What's your next wish with your magic wand? What are we gonna do?

Brian Polian:

We need to do more leadership training. We spend a lot of time talking about how we're gonna educate the workforce. How do we educate the leadership? I think it starts with the acknowledgement. And I think this has happened by and large, the acknowledgement that this group that we're, this cohort that we're working with Gen Z and Gen Alpha, right behind them are very different. And so can an old dog learn new tricks? Because the leadership has gotta get it figured out.

I see somebody like Kevin Stefanski, I think is an unbelievable relationship creator. And the way that he looks out after those guys and when the last two years of Brown's football has been pretty bad, yet you see that team play really hard. And when they do have success, the way that they interact with their leader, it's because the guy understands how to connect with folks. We need as many leaders as we can get that will continue to adjust. You can't just throw a fastball, you gotta have a change out. You gotta have a curve ball. You've gotta have more tools in your toolbox if you're gonna be effective. And it starts with the acknowledgement of, Hey, even though I'm a veteran, I can still get better.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

We have to adapt.

Brian Polian:

Yeah.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

We have to adapt. So finally, is there anything that I didn't ask that you feel might be important for our listeners to know?

Brian Polian:

I think we covered most of it. It is just the thought that folks have to get past the, well, this is how I grew up. [Right.] <laugh>, Right, [Right.] that, you know, the, just like my dad used to talk about having a walk to school in the Bronx and, and you know, in bad weather, and this is what, you know, everybody's experience is different and unique, [Right] and it's not about us anymore. This is cliche to say, but I lead from the bottom up. And so if I lead from the bottom up, the focus needs to be on our young people right now and what they need, not what necessarily I'm hardwired to do.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Yeah. I think the other thing I had forgot to mention is you talked about the importance of, you know, being multidimensional and looking at education as broadening the scope. Because what's needed today can quickly become obsolete and no longer needed tomorrow. And so the ability to be multi-dimensional is an important thing, which is a lot to wrap your head around 'cause you, you have a major, you do this, but doing more than one thing.

Brian Polian:

So that's that's a great point. A humankind's access to information has never been greater than it is today, and it will advance tomorrow. So leaders, we're not necessarily here for content anymore. What leaders are needed for now is the relationship building. It is the setting of standards. It is the holding people accountable. It is teaching folks to be a part of a team. It is to teach emotional IQ. It is to teach problem solving, critical thinking. All of those soft skills that translate to everything that make not only better professionals, but make better people. That's what the leaders are responsible for now, because the reality of it is the content can be found anywhere.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Well said. Well, Brian, I want to thank you so much. This has been a thought provoking, wonderfully insightful podcast.

To our listeners, if you'd like to suggest an education topic to us or comment on an episode, please email us at education@ccf.org. Thank you very much for joining and we look forward to seeing you on our next podcast. Have a wonderful day.

Dr. James K. Stoller:

This concludes this episode of Med Ed Thread, a Cleveland Clinic education podcast. Be sure to subscribe to hear new episodes via iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time, thanks for listening to MedEd Thread and please join us again soon.