Elaine Wyllie, MD

Podcast Transcript

Cara King, DO, DO:
Welcome back to Inspirations and Insights, Dr. Cara King here. And I hope everyone is having a fantastic week. On this week's episode, Mary and I interview Dr. Elaine Wyllie. Dr. Wyllie is Professor of Neurology at the Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine and an epilepsy specialist who provides treatment for children from around the world. She has enumerable awards, including the highly competitive Epilepsy Research Award, the Jasper Award from the American Clinical Neurophysiology Society, and the incredibly prestigious Cleveland Clinic Award for Master Clinician. She's also the editor and author of multiple books and an esteemed mentor for residents and fellows. Now, I'm going to be honest. This maybe one of my favorite interviews. On today's episode, Dr. Wyllie discusses her role as a mentor and the importance of communication. She also opens up about her passion for ballroom dancing and how this incredible gift has influenced her relationships with patients and strengthened her marriage. We hope you enjoy this truly vulnerable and powerful interview.

Mary Rensel, MD:
Dr. Elaine Wyllie welcome to the WPSA podcast. Thank you for your time today.

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
Thank you so much, Dr. Rensel. It's really a pleasure to be here.

Mary Rensel, MD:
Well, it's an honor to spend some time with you. I want to start by going back in time. I want to take you back 25 years at least, but who's counting, when I was a resident and you were staff and you called me into your office one time. And I was so nervous. Because as a resident, when you get called into a staff's office, you wonder what the heck's going on. I said, Dr. Wyllie's calling me into her office. Well, it was the best, most wonderful, most warm event and meeting between you and I, because you called me in because you wanted to check in on me because I just had a baby and was back from my first maternity leave as a neurology resident. And you wanted to give me some space to just gush about the baby and be there for support. So for the record, I want to thank you for that. And ask you if you remember some of those moments when you brought the residents in to support them.

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
Oh, how kind of you to say that, Dr. Rensel. I had such amazement for you. Everything that you managed, you went through your career, never missed a beat, had several children, did everything, did it all, you are a role model truly for all of the trainees who've worked with you. It's a privilege to work with young men and women who are in that extremely busy time of their life, getting a career together, learning all that they need to know to care for patients. And at the same time, trying to establish their families and get a foothold on their financial wellbeing as well. So, it's a very stressful time. And if I was able to help you in even one little teeny tiny way, then I'm grateful.

Mary Rensel, MD:
Well, you sure did. And I do remember you pulling in one of my residents, who unfortunately, her mother had passed away from breast cancer during her residency. And you also supported her. So, we saw you in action. And you were so clinically busy and academically busy, but I know you made time for us, which meant the world.

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
Thank you so much, Dr. Rensel. Very kind of you to say.

Mary Rensel, MD:
Absolutely. Now, were there people like that in your training or how was it in your generation of training? I'm sure it was, the environment was different. What was it like for you in your medical training, those so many years ago?

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
I was surrounded by brilliant people who inspired me and made me want to do great things. They gave me opportunities, knowledge, expertise, training. They were generous with their experience and knowledge. And they opened doors for me. And then, they helped me get through the doors. I really only wanted opportunity. I knew that whatever I created at Cleveland Clinic was up to me. But the beautiful thing about Cleveland Clinic was it gave me so many chances to see what I was capable of. And I had people around me at all times who helped me that way. For emotional support, I had the amazing good luck to marry my husband, Dr. Robert Wyllie, before I embarked into Neurology. I was just a pediatric trainee when we got married. And so, he was with me every step of the way. And that was really my linchpin from the emotional side. He fulfilled everything that I needed with that, partnered with me. When we got married, his comment was that, this'll be fine. You work full time. We'll have children. You do 80% and I'll do 80%. And I must say he definitely did his 80%.

Mary Rensel, MD:
He knows his math. He knows the family math, yeah.

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
That's right.

Mary Rensel, MD:
Everybody must give, yeah. Oh, I love it. That's wonderful to hear. I love that you had that support. I'd like to talk about something I just saw that you were featured in a CNN movie. You were the star of a Cleveland Clinic CNN Centennial Celebration movie called “A Culture of Breakthroughs”, where it was, you were highlighted as only the best doctor in the world from a family that traveled across the world from Israel so that you could care for their sweet little son Eviatar. And it also featured another gentlemen, Chad and his mom, and how impactful you were on so many lives. What was it like being a part of that movie?

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
I was overwhelmed that the Cleveland Clinic would want to highlight me for something as important as their 100th anniversary. It was such an amazing experience. And I was overwhelmed too by just how the film team put it together. When you're acting in your life, you don't see yourself. And when I actually saw that interaction, what the families were giving me, and how I was able to collaborate with them for a good result, it was overwhelming. And I have to admit the first time I saw it, I couldn't hold back the tears. I was so moved to have a career at Cleveland Clinic to have the opportunity to care for these families. And then to have this unique chance to see it through someone else's eyes, it really helped me be inspired to continue doing as much good work as I possibly can.

Mary Rensel, MD:
I highly recommend people find it. I reviewed it again for this, thinking about that little face and the family. And they said the mom, when the mom says to the little boy, "We are going to find you the best doctor in the world." And then, there's Dr. Wyllie walking down the hall with her high heels on, rocking it up. It's like, yes. Yeah. So, thank you for just being an amazing example. Dr. King, I turn it over to you.

Cara King, DO:
So yes, Dr. Wyllie, it is just such an honor to have you here. And I really want to shift gears for a moment here and dive into your passion of ballroom dancing, because I just find this incredibly fascinating and you are so incredibly skilled. So, I want to dive into this a little bit. So as physicians, it's often our calling, are part of who we are, right? Being a surgeon becomes our identity. And I feel like sometimes it's really hard to separate who we are from our work, yet it's really important that we do this. And what I've seen in you is that this incredible gift that you have at ballroom dancing has become a huge part of your life outside of work. Can you tell us about this journey? How you got into this? How you started it? And it's such an amazing thing to do with your husband as well. What a great hobby that you guys have. Can you dive into that for us?

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
Thank you, Dr. King, for bringing that up. It really has changed my life. When my sons grew up and left home, there was a massive opening of time. There were no more wrestling meets, no more parent-teacher conferences, no more wondering about curfews being met. And all of a sudden, and it's very wrenching and anyone who's gone through that experience knows that it's painful in one way, but we either feel loss or we feel opportunity. So, my husband and I tried to look and see what we could create within that space. And we tried a few different things, but then we happened accidentally onto dancing when our son was about to be married and asked to have a mother-son dance at the wedding. And I was dance-phobic and absolutely terrified of moving in front of other people in any sort of way. So, that catalyzed us finding a teacher.

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
And we started off with that simple goal in place, but immediately realized that this was the passion and the hobby and the collaboration that we'd been looking for. It is an amazing activity that exercises you on all levels. It engages your cognitive and memory abilities to learn the choreography. It engages you to develop more balance and grace in your movements. You're much more conscious of your presentation, where your body is in space. All of that. You have to develop a lot of skills you don't have physically and mentally. But in addition to that, it was challenging on a relationship level because collaborating that intensely with your spouse, it's easy to move through life becoming a little parallel. So, you're both experts. You both have your world. You're both leading teams doing things. And now, every movement that one person makes affects the other. And you really have to work through the leader-follower paradigm. Everybody doesn't get to lead on the dance floor.

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
So, it was astounding how much we learned and how it helped our relationship develop and deepen and strengthen. And then, I also realized that in fact dancing is applicable to everything we do. So it changed my way of speaking with families, my physical contact in moving through the office spaces, how I help patients through the hallways and doing things. All of that was studied practice change in behavior that arose from dancing. So, I was much more cognizant of the need to improve the way that I connect with families. And I credit that largely to dancing and the teaching that I got with that. And so, it's a lifelong quest. I'll try to do it as long as I'm physically capable. And hopefully, my teachers will be kind and give me choreography that fits my... As I developed through stages.

Cara King, DO:
Your story is more incredible than I could even put in my head. I have so much I want to break down. The fact that you are actually dancing versus star actually is incredible that you've come as far as you have. I mean, you are absolutely incredible on the dance floor. My question is this. So as physicians, we are used to being the experts, right? Everyone turns to us for the answers. We're used to being the person in the room with the most knowledge or the most skill. I can't imagine how hard it must have been to all of a sudden not be the expert, right? All of a sudden shift that role completely. Where did you find the courage to try something new?

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
Well, that was really one of the main benefits of becoming a student again. We came from zero. We walked into our teacher and he started with the cha-cha basic. Just move your feet. And we weren't young. And I thought, wow, this teacher has truly a challenge to bring me along here at this point. But I've had two teachers in dance and they have both not set any limits for me. They have not said, you can't do this, or people at your situation shouldn't be doing that. Nothing, they just kept encouraging me to come along. And it's like anything in life, the more time you spend on it, the better you get at it.

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
And early on, very early, a few months after we started, my husband built us a dance floor in our basement with 25 feet of mirrors and a professional dance floor and a beautiful stereo system. So, it's a place where we can retreat and practice every day. So, I try to do that as part of my wellness program in addition to other forms of exercise. I try to spend about an hour a day on that if I have the time.

Cara King, DO:
You mentioned that the movement of dance has actually changed the way you interact with patients or the way you move in the halls or the way you carry yourself. It makes me think of me operating, right? So, I'm a surgeon. And so, I'm very focused in on technical skills a lot. And I always watch all my laparoscopic cases and watch my hands and watch what my assistants are doing. I'm curious, do you video yourself dancing? Do you watch that and does that give you feedback in how to improve?

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
Yes. Actually, we have our videos posted on a website. It's TangoWyllieOnVimeo.com. If anybody's interested, we actually professionally videotape ourselves once or twice a year for all the new material. And that serves the purpose of archiving the choreography, but also helping us improve our game. Because you think you look one way and you look at your video and you know it's another.

Cara King, DO:
So true.

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
But I think that really how we move through our day no matter what we're doing involves choreography and thought. So, I've tried to focus a lot based on that concept in the choreography of how do you introduce a new seizure diagnosed to a family. How do you tell them a new difficult diagnosis like epilepsy? How do you explain those complicated concepts in a way that does not provoke a flight or fight reaction where they don't shut down and can't hear you? How do you penetrate those natural fears and anxieties about something as life-changing as that sort of new diagnosis for yourself or your child? Or how do you discuss things like SUDEP, Sudden Unexpected Death in Epilepsy? So developing ways of speaking to family and the body language to go with it, I think has helped me make progress for families to feel comfortable, whether they have a mild diagnosis or a more severe problem.

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
And I think that's a big role for us as physicians. We've become more focused on communication as a community, but wanting to be a good communicator and really developing that as a journey. And I think dancing has been very helpful to make me aware. And I practice a lot of my scripts on lay people. Sometimes I want to know, did that make you feel frightened when I said that just now? Did that make you feel like you didn't understand and that it was over your head? Did it make you feel courage that we can handle this together or confidence and trust in me? What kind of emotions am I provoking? Just as when you're dancing, you're trying to provoke some emotions in the people that are watching you in a nonverbal way.

Cara King, DO:
That is so incredibly powerful. Again, I feel like communication, you're right, we say it's important, but how often do we actually stop and reflect on what we're making our patients feel, right? Or how we're presenting ourselves? That's such an interesting way that you've worked on that skill. And number one, it sounds like you do counseling with people who aren't actually your patients to see what emotions you're evoking. And then, you're also thinking about in a whole new way through the movement of your dance. That's so incredibly self-reflective. I love that. So much to learn from you.

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
I know I'll never exhaust the potential for improvement in this area. It will be every single day there's new opportunity to get better and do better. And the other thing I tried to engage into to help me with this was writing a blog for US News & World Report, which is for obviously for consumers. It's not for medical people. And that again has been a wonderful experience to try to gradually improve my ability to communicate tough concepts to people who need to know. And I will never stop trying to get better on that as well. It's work in progress.

Cara King, DO:
You are such a role model, truly. I have one last question about dancing and I'm going to turn it back over to Mary. I'll be honest, I found your Vimeo page and I'm quite obsessed. And I'm not going to lie to you, I'm quite obsessed. And I watched a lot of your solos and then the dancing with your husband. And you're so intricate, like legs are flying in spaces. And if you're off by centimeters, you guys are both going down, right? I mean, it's really intricate. But then it made me think, I hope this doesn't come off wrong. I love my husband. I'm married. I have three kids and I love my husband, but sometimes we don't agree on things. My question for you is, have you ever had a dance practice or a dance competition where maybe you guys weren't getting along fully? Or how do you navigate such an intimate dance if you guys aren't mentally on the same page? Has that ever happened to you?

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
Oh, you have nailed a major issue. Couples dancing requires tremendous patience and understanding courtesy. You have to keep your emotions in check. And there are moments when I'm usually the one who gets frustrated. It'll bubbles up a little bit. But that doesn't work. What you have to do is realize that you're in the wrong place. The dance cannot go forward as long as you're in that headset. I'm grateful for that challenge because I want to be more of that and less of the bubble up person. I don't want to be the person who is used to just being on my own with no need to adjust to anybody else around me. So, there's no question that it's a challenge.

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
And I think there are some couples that aren't fit for this. You have to have a very strong collaboration to even undertake this. And I think for some people, I've seen some people start the classes and have to quit because it's just, they just don't want to go there. But I wanted passionately to go there. I thought that would be a better me. Am I done working on that? Absolutely not. I still have to work on it. But I want to keep being tested that way and challenge that way.

Cara King, DO:
Well, you can see the connection that you and your husband have. It's just truly powerful. And it made me think like, I need to start dancing.

Mary Rensel, MD:
For sure.

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
Oh, you'd be a fit. Both of you would be fantastic dancers. You've got beautiful instruments to play the music with. Of course, the body would be your instrument. And you have the instruments. And obviously, the drive and the passion and the intellect. So yes, go forth.

Cara King, DO:
I'm not going to lie. I'll be calling you after this podcast for more information.

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
Okay.

Cara King, DO:
Because I'm seriously very excited about this!

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
We'll hook you up.

Cara King, DO:
Thank you.

Mary Rensel, MD:
Go forth. I love this. Everyone listening to the podcast, Elaine Wyllie says, go forth and dance. Yeah, you have the instruments. Okay. Use it wisely, right? It is a gift. Honestly, I love how you're honoring the gift that we've been given. Elaine, we have a wide audience that listens to this podcast and some are new doctors or even students or trainers at various levels. And I want to dig a little bit into your textbook (Wyllie’s Treatment of Epilepsy) that has gone through what, how many editions, seven now?

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
Yes, ma'am. We just finished seven.

Mary Rensel, MD:
Yes. And tell me about the first one. How did it come to life? Tell me about the birth of this textbook.

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
Sure. When I started training in epilepsy, there was no really well-coordinated field as such. It was a poor relative of neurology in a way in the very beginning. It took time to establish itself. And during those early phases, there was really no single curriculum to learn. I was trying to learn everything I needed to know to be a neurologist, but also an epileptologist. And there was no book to buy. I found myself buying a book on EEG, a book on seizure types, a book on medicines, a book on surgery, which might have a chapter on epilepsy surgery. So there was no real defined book that said, if you're going to be an epilepsy specialist, you need to know everything that's in this book. And if you know that, then you will pass your boards and you will do good work. And you'll have a reference on your shelf where you can look things up if you miss that.

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
So, that was my goal. And when I reached out to the publisher, I was very surprised. They got interested right away and we got to work. There were naysayers people. As always, when people have new ideas, there are wet blankets being ready to be thrown. But I had faith that this would be, because I wanted it and I needed it. I was sure I wasn't the only one. So, my goal was to put it together. I got a grant which meant that it could be sold for under a $100. We gave it free to residents. I was committed to making it no bigger than about 1200 pages. So it had to be comprehensive, but not three volumes and out of the reach of people. So there were some real goals I was trying to fix, but I think the fact that it has survived throughout all this time and remained a standard is because it did fulfill that original goal that I had in mind.

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
Lately, we've had the opportunity since obviously everything has become digital, we now have it linked to CME (Continuing Medical Education). So we have a whole CME activity that goes with it and 500 questions, which gives a whole bunch of AAN (American Academy of Neurology) approved CNA credits and so forth. So, I'm very excited about that opportunity. So not only is it a study guide for young people coming into epilepsy, or reference guide for more established people. I still look stuff up. I just recently did a whole deep dive into some finer points of the use of contraception in women of epilepsy. And it was my book that got me started and it was the author who helped me understand it better when I reached out. So I'm still using it myself, but having the CME available, I thought might be additionally helpful for some people.

Mary Rensel, MD:
I love it. So you saw a need, you approached a publisher, some people said no, and you kept going, right? You had a goal and you've stuck with that goal. I love that. You just see this opportunity and you have nailed it. That's so great. So when people are wondering, what's left for them, is there something left to do? There are opportunities, right?

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
Every single day, that is truly been my approach through my whole career. And I would encourage young people to take the same point of view that every single day opportunities will present. And you will look for them, you seek them so that you're fertile ground when they come your way. And the minute you see something, you grab it and you fulfill it and you take it to closure. And if you do that over and over, your dreams will come true and all your goals will be met. And eventually, depending on what, where you want to grow, whether it's as a clinician, master clinician, or whether it's a person in operations with continuous improvement and efficiencies, or whether it's education, or whether it's research. All of those avenues have tremendous opportunities. And I think the important thing is to try on all of them early in your career. Experiment in every area, be the quality officer. If you're interested in process improvement, get involved in the teaching program. If research attracts you, do some research projects and try to improve your clinical work every single day.

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
And eventually, different pathways will become more attractive than others. And maybe you'll become more specialized. I've actually specialized in all those at different times, but where I've landed is clinician as my primary number one goal. But it's not exclusive because you're always still a mentor, a colleague, a peer, a lifelong learner. You're still participating in improving things around you, try to do better. I just recently got very engaged in developing a new clinic template. I mean, it looked like something that needed doing, so we did it. I think that's really what I would suggest to young people is keep your mind open to all these opportunities, seize anything that looks attractive to you, take it where it will take you, and be patient. Let it come over time and don't be impatient about things, because it will all come to pass, but it does take time.

Mary Rensel, MD:
I love it. Just yeah, meet the needs and keep looking for opportunities. Isn't that amazing? Life will keep putting them in front of you. You mentioned master clinician. Funny that you mentioned that because that is one of your many awards that was recently granted to you. It's a lifetime achievement award here at Cleveland Clinic and it's a high honor. How did it feel getting that award?

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
That was truly the... I would have to categorize that as the proudest moment of recognition in my career. I've had wonderful things come my way, peer awards from various societies, which I treasure and value. But Master Clinician at Cleveland Clinic, a once yearly award from among 5,000 candidates, I think secretly, maybe I'm wrong, but I think secretly every doctor at Cleveland Clinic yearns to be that person. It's always what I saw as the highest award that you could ever get. And to have it actually come my way, I was overwhelmed. And what it served to do was inspire me. It was like rocket fuel. It made me feel that more dedicated to my job, more eager to contribute. I wanted to fulfill the expectations that came with such memento.

Mary Rensel, MD:
I love it. Well, that is very obvious in your activity. I mean, you've been hitting these national awards, international awards, recognitions. And now, you've been visiting professor at many places including Harvard, right? I mean, is it neat to see the people you've trained and to go to these major institutions and be honored when you're there?

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
It is obviously very wonderful to collaborate with your colleagues around the country. In the early part of my career, it was very important for me to collaborate with people who are developing pediatric epilepsy programs around the world, because we were a very small group of people developing a whole new way of doing things. And it was very important for me to interact with them and get ideas that I could then bring back to Cleveland Clinic and to our growing group here. And those collaborations were really critical as it went on in years being a visiting professor shifted from being absolutely mandatory to being a lot of fun.

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
And now at this point, I love Zoom meetings. Those are great. Nobody has to take an airplane. And it also allows us to do so much more. I just this weekend did a webinar with a live portion to it for the International Child Neurology Association. And the questions that came in were from Indonesia, India, Egypt, Norway, Argentina. How could we ever have coordinated an exchange of information prior to those that sort of connectivity? I think that the blossoming of virtual interactions like that are going to make us all progress further together.

Mary Rensel, MD:
I so agree. I love the blossoming.

Cara King, DO:
You're right, it just felt so much smaller, which is great. You can connect with people all over the world in a webinar now. It's fantastic.

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
Yeah. And to have that live interaction afterwards. If I were to go to some of these countries, the amount of time away from the clinic and away from my practice would be, you'd have to ask yourself about the wisdom of that when the number of people in that country who are really interested in what you do in a very specialized way is not so great. It's not that many. But we can reach each other so much more easily this way. And the questions were very sophisticated, highly advanced. I really enjoyed that. And I hope that together as different groups, we continue that process.

Cara King, DO:
I love it. That collaboration is invaluable. All right. Dr. Wyllie, as we wrap up our interview, I have one final question for you. Talking about next steps, what's next on your agenda and things that you want to accomplish? And this can be personal in regard to ballroom dancing next steps, or it can be professional. I mean, you've already received the most prestigious award that we are yearning for and all the awards. Yeah. So, what's next on your agenda?

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
It really is truly about every single day. My agenda is to do the best day today that I can do. How can I improve as a doctor, a mentor, a colleague, a lifelong learner? I'll try to improve as a dancer. Who knows? I might play a toe at some point and have to live with that. But as long as I can keep growing in all those areas and participating, that's really all I want. And then as opportunities come, I'll take whatever happens. I'm grateful to have had a long career. And a lot of people might not want to keep working after a certain number of years at the helm, but as long as it's as exciting and inspiring and rewarding as it is today, I hope I can continue and do well.

Cara King, DO:
I love this. I know, slow clap on our end. You are truly inspiring. And you can tell that you're still just so passionate about what you do. It just radiates off of you. And so just keeping that space for self-reflection, staying flexible, and doing what feels good. You can tell that you're doing that. So, thank you so much.

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
Well, thank you. You are have been so wonderful to ask about these things. I'm honored for the chance to share some things. I've actually never talked about any of this outside of my family. And this is a change for me. Thank you for inspiring me to open up a little bit. I hope that some people will find it helpful and that young women especially, who are faced with, because a lot of the homework falls on them. Young doctors in general, young women in particular, I hope that they will realize how well this can all turn out. Just hang in there. Don't get discouraged. Don't get impatient. Take each day as it comes. Make the arrangement that works for you.

Cara King, DO:
We hold that close to our heart. Thank you much. And I'll be in touch once I figure out my next competition for dance because I'll need you to help coach me through that. So thank you so much, Elaine.

Elaine Wyllie, MD:
Absolutely. Thank you both. Take care.