Cynthia Kubu, PhD

Podcast Transcript

Dr. Cara King:

Hello everyone. Thank you as always for tuning in today. We are absolutely thrilled to have Dr. Cynthia Kubu on our show today. Dr. Kubu is a neuropsychologist within the Center for Neurological Restoration at Cleveland Clinic, and is currently Vice Dean of Faculty Development at the Case Western (Reserve University) School of Medicine. In this episode, Dr. Kubu discusses her field of neuropsychology and shares tips for achieving success in academic medicine, such as making time for the things outside of work that replenish you, the importance of being your authentic self, and flourishing at your own pace. Thanks so much for listening.

Dr. Mary Rensel:

We are excited today to introduce Dr. Cindy Kubu. Thank you for being here.

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

Hey, you're welcome. It's a pleasure to see both of you.

Dr. Mary Rensel :

Oh, it's nice to be together. So we on our WPSA (Women’s Professional Staff Association) podcast here are honoring our past WPSA presidents, which you have served, and we are so grateful for the time and energy you put into that. I have a really fond memory of a conference room with many white boards when you were president and I was on a committee or something, and you were trying to focus us all so that we could achieve a clear vision and mission of the WPSA as we were trying to refocus and kind of rebrand and really serve our constituents as WPSA and the Cleveland Clinic was really growing. What are some of your fond memories from your WPSA president days?

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

Oh, there are many, many, many. I think I love the energy with the small group of us who are trying to reinvigorate WPSA and then to see the outcome of that. I remember, I think it was, because I served kind of an advisory capacity then. I was Vice President and then Co-president. So I served on the executive board for a number of years and at one point we had one of our early annual dinners and Nancy Fisher Crum came in and she saw the crowd just brimming with enthusiasm and positive energy. And she goes, “This is your impact. This is your return on investment”, and it just made me feel good to see women connecting. I remember reaching out to Hadley Wood (MD). I met her there and kind of gently encouraged her to consider joining and being involved in WPSA leadership and she had encouragement from Margaret McKenzie (MD; see Podcast Episode 06) and others and was an outstanding presence.

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

So I think the fact that we have this positive energy, the fact that we've got people supporting each other, and the fact that we're bringing new people in. And also, I think the fact that upper level leadership takes us very seriously and they're committed to making changes. I've always kind of been frustrated as it’s like water trickling on a stone in terms of affecting change. But I think we're in an inflection point now. I think leadership is trying to recognize that. And I think that the clout that WPSA has has been tremendous.

Dr. Mary Rensel:

Wow. Yeah. So thank you for your service. I agree. I love those gentle nudges to get involved and look what can happen because then Hadley (Wood, MD) served as President and she enacted change. So I just love how your forces, you just put those forces into power. So thank you for that. I'm thinking about also this course that you're teaching to try also to help staff develop as academically, so to get involved and get their application ready. And so can you tell us about your new position as Interim Vice Dean of faculty development at Case (Western Reserve University School of Medicine) and the courses you've done at (Cleveland) Clinic to get people moving?

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

I've always been very, very passionate about empowering women and minorities, leveling the playing field and reducing inequities. And so that led me to be involved at a national level as well as within the WPSA in these efforts. I was very, very fortunate. I can't remember how many years ago now I got a Chief of Staff grant from Brian Donley (MD, former Cleveland Clinic Chief of Staff, now CEO, Cleveland Clinic London) to increase the number of women and minorities and upper academic faculty ranks. And those efforts continue. We've had some positive impact with that in terms of various promotion workshops we've put out and we push them out across the city now to demystify the promotion process. I think you attended one, right? And so it's really important because we know that women and minorities are underrepresented in upper academic faculty ranks. Not everybody can be a leader, but I firmly believe that your academic title should reflect your CV.

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

I've done an awful lot of faculty development with colleagues at Case (Western Reserve University School of Medicine) for the women (staff) in the Anesthesia Institute for the Pediatric Hospitalists, as well as through WPSA. And then more recently over the past five to six years, I became more involved in Case (Western Reserve University School of Medicine) and governance, including serving on faculty council, some committees, serving on the Senate, co-chairing and serving on the promotions committee. As well as some of the work I've done citywide to increase the number of women in leadership. I think I rose to the attention of the Dean. And when there was an opportunity for this interim Vice Dean of Faculty, I was appointed and have applied now that the position's been opened up officially.

Dr. Mary Rensel :

Congratulations. I love that. Yeah. So those forces have been in power. As a neuropsychologist, I'm around a lot of young adults now as my kids are aging and they're in school and they're trying to figure out their life. I feel like we need to clarify what is a neuropsychologist? How would I explain that to one of my young, I have a niece who's thinking psychology or occupational therapy or something, some way to help people.

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

Well, as I tell the medical students, and they probably get tired of this, but I have the best job at the (Cleveland) Clinic. Neuropsychology is the study of the brain and behavior. And we know certain parts of the brain are important for certain kind of thinking skills. Psychologists develop tests that measure these thinking skills. We know what kind of scores to expect from individuals. And we know how gender, and ethnicity, and education can impact performance. We also know what pattern to expect from people with different kinds of brain disorders or damage involving different regions of the brain.

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

So, as you know Mary, I'm very fortunate to work with the deep brain stimulation team and have been for 20 some years. So it's a very privileged position because we get to see patients who are really devastated by their neurological conditions or neuropsychiatric conditions. And I think because I work with such an outstanding team, many of those patients improve. So you see improvement in quality of life, which is heartwarming. And then addition as a scientist, you can study somebody prior to neurosurgical procedure, see what happens afterwards and learn more about brain function and how to better help future patients.

Dr. Mary Rensel :

You also have had NIH funding. So if you had a young academic neurologist, neuropsychologist, any kind of medical doc, who's like, “Ooh, I would love to get into NIH funding but I have no idea where to start”. What would you tell them? First three steps or so. How do they get to where you've gotten, where you have had NIH funding to look into the quality of life and so many things to serve these patients and their families?

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

I think that what you want to do, there are a couple of things. First of all, you have to figure out what do you want to study and why? And you have to really, really want to answer those questions, because this is really hard to do and it takes a lot of work. And I don't want to dispel any myths that it's easy, because it isn't. You have to be willing to work early mornings, late evenings, weekends. There have been times I've taken vacation time to get my grants out because you need solid, uninterrupted time to write and think. And we're so busy. We don't often have that opportunity to stop and think. Right. But once you do, it's great fun. So you have to do it because you really want to. And I think that's the biggest theme here. If you don't really want to, then you're not going to have that joy and passion.

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

And that's what you need to do to carry you through. In terms of positive steps I think, that the NI (Neurological Institute) is a wonderful infrastructure to support new and emerging physician scientists and researchers through the NI, I think it's the scholars program, I can't remember now, but I'd participate in that. There is the tremendous support via statistics, grant writing and so on. Those are two lessons. The other lesson too, and I think this is particularly relevant for women and it may hold also for some minorities, is that don't wait for perfection. Don't let the pursuit of perfection to be the enemy of the good. At some point, whether it's your paper, your grant or whatever, you just have to hit submit, and then see what happens. If you keep trying to tweak it and make it perfect and more perfect and more perfect. It's never going to happen. And it doesn't have to be absolutely perfect, but you need to get it out there to get feedback, then improve. And it's an iterative process.

Dr. Cara King:

Those words resonate with me so much in that pursuit of perfection. Right. I feel like I sometimes paralyze myself in that in just like my manuscript writing. And I think those words are so important that just put your pen to paper, get things out of your brain and then submit. Right. And that's an iterative process. Just like you said, get that feedback and then you're just going to continue to get better.

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

That's it exactly. That's exactly it, Cara, and I think the thing is it's like doing anything hard or if you, I don't know how many of you guys exercise, right? But I like to exercise. You don't start running a marathon, you start walking around the block and then you start doing what I call a slog, which is a slow jog. Right. And you keep inching it up.

Dr. Cara King :

I like that.

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

But you can't expect to get an NIH grant without having these other experiences. So you have to kind of train for it. You have to flex those muscles. And as you start to flex those muscles, it becomes easier. It becomes less daunting. It becomes more fun, just like running longer distances or lifting more weight. That's exactly it. And I think there's these narratives out there too. I've kind of spoken of this that if you don't get it within the first 10 years, you're never going to get it. I'm living proof. That's not true. Right. And that my first grant I got in my 40s and then two subsequent ones in my 50s. Right. And so these burst of creativity, these burst in terms of your career taking off can happen at any stage in your career. And so don't think that you're past that prime time. And don't think if you haven't accomplished it by a certain age, that it's never going to happen.

Dr. Cara King :

I feel like as physicians, right, we base our thought process on being experts. Right. And so like having that vulnerability of maybe doing something that we don't feel really confident in can feel really scary. Right. And it can feel really vulnerable. And I didn't realize that your first grant was when you were in your 40s. When I read your CV I just thought that you started doing this when you first got out. Talk to me about how you made that transition. Like, how did you get there? What kind of things in your journey did you do to get yourself to be comfortable in this arena?

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

I think part of it is, is one, you've got to have people that believe in you. And one, you have to start to believe in yourself and listen to that inner voice. We talk a lot about leadership. And I think one of the things about leadership is people want to do it, but they don't know what they want to lead toward or for what reason. And part of the most fundamental skill in leadership is knowing who you are, your values, and your strengths. And I kept gravitating. I love writing. I love connecting ideas. I love trying to make things better for my patients, my faculty, the team, whatever it may be. Right. And so if you gravitate to those things that one, you really inherently enjoy and bring you joy where you're in that flow and you completely lose your sense of time as you're engaged in it like I do when I'm writing, then it's no longer work.

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

It's regenerating, it's rejuvenating. It helps you out that way. I think all of us have experienced in those moments with patients where we make those connections. Finding my trainees here at off on what makes your soul sing and gravitating toward that and recognizing that we don't have to be these triple threats. There are some things, I cannot do operations at all. I don't want to do operational work. Right. I love the academic pursuits. Right. So recognizing that, and then also being willing to do things that you're not so good at because that teaches you some more humility and it's just pure fun. It's pure unadulterated fun. Like if it be painting, if it be non-academic writing, you don't have to be an expert at this, you just need to stretch yourself and play a little bit and giving your self permission to play without being these experts.

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

It's very limiting, particularly I think women with doctorate degrees, right, because you do feel like you have to be the expert, know everything, you feel sometimes that people are trying to cut you off and cut you down. And so you're not that bright. You're not doing that. And to be comfortable that you don't have to know all those answers and you don't have to be perfect the first round. Learning those skills, I think has been very important. So I one, listen to my inner voice and try not to let fear hold me back. Right. And just do the things that really make my soul sing. It sounds cheesy, but it's true.

Dr. Cara King :

It doesn't though. It just, it resonates so much. And like the things I'm hearing you say is number one, build a tribe of people around you that will give you the space to kind of flex and push yourself. And if you fail, you're not going to feel judged, right? Like that space where you're there to raise everybody else up. I heard once that you're the average of the five people you hang out with the most and this sits with me. I'm always like, who am I hanging out with right now?

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

Well, I'm just thinking my black lab. I don't know how he fits into that, but.

Dr. Cara King :

I also have a lab. I'm going to go with that's good for our soul. So I'm hearing you say that, but I'm also hearing you say, be attentive to your authentic self. I feel like so much we get in this path, right, of other people almost telling us the goals that we should be having. And those goals feel good because I mean, outside people are proud of us or we're meeting the milestones that other people think that we should. But giving yourself that space to really know what makes your soul sing, giving yourself the space to know what really does bring me joy. Right.

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

That's exactly it. I mean, both of those points are essential. You have to have your tribe around you and those people support you and love you regardless. And they need to be diverse both in the work setting and across the work setting, across the city, national organizations, family, friends, and so on. And kind of what makes your soul sing is something that I've intentionally tried to teach my trainees by using me as an example, in terms of when I was too scattered, I wasn't as a productive because you were trying to do too many things.

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

And there's a simple exercise. I think Mary's heard this where I draw concentric circles in the bullseye. What's most important to you. And for me, writing was more important, family and other things. Right. And just in the border was teaching. So I knew that anytime somebody asked me to teach, I had to give up writing time and I had to be comfortable with that. There's a quote I think, Massimo Vignelli that "One life is too short to do everything." And knowing kind of your priorities and being comfortable with those helps make these difficult decisions. And then helps you realize that you don't have to be perfect at all this because who wants to, who wants to be a two dimensional caricature of who you are rather than a three dimensional, messy person that people care about.

Dr. Cara King:

Oh, I love that. I'm so messy. Did you know that? I'm like the messiest.

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

I'm glad that you're not seeing the rest of my office.

Dr. Cara King:

I know. I completely hear you. But what a cool exercise, right? Keeping that inner circle of why, right, and then understanding that's going to change with time. Right.

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

It can change.

Dr. Cara King:

Revisiting.

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

My kids are launched now, knock on wood. And before they were dead center in my bullseye, now that'd be a little bit too enmeshed. Right. And so they're a little bit out and other people are there. And realizing that if you take time from something it's going to come from something else. And to make sure that you're allotting your time towards those things that you value the most, I think it's a hard lesson. And sometimes you can't do that. Sometimes there's pushes intentions, particularly more junior in your career. But having that clarity can be very, very helpful and it can influence the positions you take and how you decide to allocate your time.

Dr. Cara King:

I heard you mention running and I heard you mention, you have a lab. I'm just curious because you must create this head space for yourself. Right. I mean, you must do something in your life to be able to give yourself this space away. Are you a runner? What do you do for your space?

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

I used to be. Most of the time what I'm doing is I'm hiking out in the woods and I'm out there quite a bit or gardening, or I just need to move. I need to move. And that helps me. I had a meeting earlier today at the art museum, was my favorite places to go. So the art museum, I regularly go to the orchestra and those are places that replenish my soul. They allow me to use my head in a completely different way. They're very, very important to me. Yeah. So no matter what I make time for that.

Dr. Cara King:

Yeah. That like movement meditation, right? I'm not good at staying still, but I'm a marathon runner. So that movement meditation or doing something that's completely outside our realm, like music or art and it makes different synapses fire. And then all of a sudden other things make sense to me. So I can completely relate to that.

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

Exactly. You got it. Does your lab run with you?

Dr. Cara King:

Oh my gosh. Yeah. I have a puppy lab. She's nine months now and she's currently destroying my house. But yeah, she's an amazing runner. That is one thing that she does do with me. Yeah.

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

Yeah. See my excuse is Shadow is a little bit too old.

Dr. Cara King:

Yeah.

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

Arthritis.

Dr. Cara King:

Yeah. I know their poor hips go. It's true.

Dr. Mary Rensel :

Cindy, you mentioned some of your activity nationally and the Society for Clinical Neuropsychology, you're very active in. Can you share with us your current role and what your learnings from being active nationally and what that allows you to bring back to us here in Cleveland or to share from Cleveland to national colleagues?

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

I'm president elect and I'll be President of the Society for Clinical Neuropsychology of the American Psychological Association in August. To be honest, I never really aspire to do this, but I've got a little bit of a brand nationally as being an advocate for women. And that's part of that integrity piece. And if they're asking me to run and I say “no”, what message does that sent to others? So I'm doing it. I'm very grateful for the opportunity. And I do view it very much and intentionally as an opportunity. And it's my responsibility to build other people up and to develop a deeper pipeline. The American Psychological Association is wonderful. There are tons and tons of opportunities for early career, psychologists and people to get engaged. There's a strong commitment to diversity and we're starting to act on it even further. I also think that we can think at least in terms of where I'm thinking of taking my leadership role in that organization is pushing kind of professional development across the career span.

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

I think that sometimes mid and later career faculty, people buy into that myth that if you don't have that upper trajectory in your first 10 years, you're done and I strongly believe that's not true. And so figuring out how do we reach out to them and continue ongoing professional development because it's lifelong learning and that's what we should be engaged in as well. So I think there's opportunities there.

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

I think that the other of thing that's really important, learned this from Joe Hahn (MD, former Cleveland Clinic Chief of Staff) and a couple of other people, is that there are limited leadership opportunities at Cleveland Clinic. And if you want to develop those muscles, I think it's really helpful to look outside the institution. Case was very helpful for me in terms of faculty governance. National organizations are a way to develop those leadership skills to make those connections. And they also come back and enhance the reputation of the Cleveland Clinic. And so I think that, think outside of the box in terms of leadership and how you can give back once again, aligned with your goals and values and why you want to lead, what is the reason, what do you want to lead for and toward, and to develop those skills. And then to bring other people up, which ultimately is what I think leaders do, they achieve goals and they bring other people up.

Dr. Mary Rensel :

Wonderful. Well, I think you've been a wonderful example of that definitely here in Cleveland and of course, nationally, and locally, and regionally. So thank you for all your service. And I do want to give you a little moment to talk about your kiddos that you said are launched. I hear one is in the Air Force. That you got to pin her or something. We're going to give you little mom brag time.

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

You've been talking to Cathy Boyle, I think. Anyhow. So proud mother are two wonderful, wonderful kids. And my son is working in accounting and doing well in the region. My daughter, this is kind of a lesson to those of you who aspire to raise independent girls. Sometimes they exceed your expectations. She decided to join Air Force ROTC at University and we're not a military family. And at first I was quite concerned because I'm like, oh my gosh, is this for her? You hear about all the sexism in the armed forces. I hear the air force is the best.

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

But then when I attended one of their spring ceremonies, I was really, really touched because here you've got a group of young adults who believe in something bigger than themselves, to the extent that they're willing to commit their life. It still gives me chills a little bit. So I think somewhere we did something right. So she is an officer in the Air Force working in healthcare. There's no surprise there. And she's in Anchorage. And so I just did get back from visiting her. So I had the privilege with her dad and brother of pinning her when she had her commissioning ceremony.

Dr. Mary Rensel :

Unbelievable. I'm not crying at all right now, just thinking about it. Right. Congratulations. That's wonderful. Well, thank you for your time and all your service and all you've done for WPSA.

Dr. Cynthia Kubu:

Oh, thank you guys. You know what, and just keep paying it forward. That's all we can do and let's keep paying it forward and supporting leadership that supports all of us.