Building Engagement and Trust Through Leadership

Podcast Transcript

Beyond Leadership Podcast Series

Release Date: January 29, 2026

Expiration Date: January 28, 2029

Estimated Time of Completion: 30 minutes

Building Engagement and Trust through Leadership 

Serpil Erzurum, MD
Brian Harte, MD

Description

Welcome to L.E.A.D., a special series by Beyond Leadership. L.E.A.D. is an innovative, action-oriented framework built on four human-centered behaviors: Listening, Empathizing, Adapting, and Developing. In this series, we explore how top leaders apply these behaviors to build trust, foster collaboration, promote growth, and connect authentically every day.

This episode will focus on Building Engagement and Trust through Leadership, features Dr. Serpil Erzurum, and Dr. Brian Harte. Together, they discuss how leaders can foster psychological safety, build resilient teams, and create environments where employees thrive. Listeners will gain actionable insights to strengthen their leadership and support teams in delivering exceptional care.

Learning Objectives

• Explain how trust and transparent communication are foundational to driving engagement, psychological safety, and high performance within teams.
• Identify and apply strategies for increasing self-awareness and welcoming feedback to enhance leadership effectiveness.
• Demonstrate techniques for creating inclusive environments where all voices are valued and for strategically rebuilding trust when it has been compromised.

Target Audience

This program is designed for healthcare professionals interested in advancing their leadership skills.

Accreditation

In support of improving patient care, Cleveland Clinic Center for Continuing Education is jointly accredited by the Accreditation Council for Continuing Medical Education (ACCME), the Accreditation Council for Pharmacy Education (ACPE), and the American Nurses Credentialing Center (ANCC), to provide continuing education for the healthcare team.

Credit Designation

• American Medical Association (AMA)

Cleveland Clinic Center for Continuing Education designates this internet enduring material for a maximum of 0.5 AMA PRA Category 1 Credits™. Physicians should claim only the credit commensurate with the extent of their participation in the activity.

Participants claiming CME credit from this activity may submit the credit hours to the American Osteopathic Association for Category 2 credit.

• American Nurses Credentialing Center (ANCC)

Cleveland Clinic Center for Continuing Education designates this internet enduring material for a maximum of 0.5 ANCC contact hours.

• American Academy of PAs (AAPA)

Cleveland Clinic Center for Continuing Education has been authorized by the American Academy of PAs (AAPA) to award AAPA Category 1 CME credit for activities planned in accordance with AAPA CME Criteria. This activity is designated for 0. 5 AAPA Category 1 CME credits. PAs should only claim credit commensurate with the extent of their participation.

• Accreditation Council of Pharmacy Education (ACPE)

Cleveland Clinic Center for Continuing Education designates this knowledge-based activity for a maximum of 0.5 hours. Credit will be provided to NABP CPE Monitor within 60 days after the activity completion. Universal Activity Number List:
- Pharmacist UAN: JA0000192-0000-26-029-H99-P

• Interprofessional Continuing Education (IPCE) Credit 

This activity was planned by and for the healthcare team, and learners will receive 0.5 Interprofessional Continuing Education (IPCE) credit for learning and change.

• Certificate of Participation

A certificate of participation will be provided to other health care professionals for requesting credits in accordance with their professional boards and/or associations.

Cleveland Clinic Planning Committee 

James Stoller, MD, MS
Co-Activity Director
Chair, Education 

Cecile Foshee, PhD
Co-Activity Director
Director, Office of Interprofessional Learning

Sawsan Abdel Razig, MD
Chief Academic Officer, Cleveland Clinic Abu Dhabi

Lindsey Amerine, PharmD
Sr. VP, Chief Pharmacy Officer

Lisa Baszynski, DNP
Executive Director, Associate Chief Nursing Officer

Colleen Carroll, MS
Sr. Director of Leadership and Learning

Matthew Donnelly, MBBS (Hons)
VP, Professional Staff Affairs

Mark Hamilton, MD
Cleveland Clinic London

Jospeh Iannotti, MD
Chief of Staff, Cleveland Clinic Florida

Debra Kangisser, PA-C
Office of Interprofessional Learning

Aanchal Kapoor, MD, MEd
Founder and Director of the Medical Intensive Liver Unit 

Suchetha Kshettry, MD
Enterprise & Ohio Women’s Professional Staff Association President, (2025-2026)

Christopher Nagel, BA, MA
VP, Leadership and Learning

Silvia Perez Protto, MD
Immediate Women’s Professional Staff Association Past President, (2025)

Ronna Romano, MBA
Office of Interprofessional Learning

Stormy Sweitzer, PhD
Office of Interprofessional Learning

Faculty

Serpil Erzurum, MD
Executive Vice President and Chief Research and Academic Officer

Brian Harte, MD
President of the East Submarket

Host

Jim Pae
Manager, Organizational Development

Disclosures

The Cleveland Clinic Center for Continuing Education has implemented a policy to comply with the Accreditation Council for Continuing Medical Education Standards for Integrity and Independence. This activity includes non-clinical content only. In accordance with the Standards for Integrity and Independence, identification, mitigation and disclosure of financial relationships does not apply.

CME Disclaimer

The information in this educational activity is provided for general medical education purposes only and is not meant to substitute for the independent medical judgment of a physician relative to diagnostic and treatment options of a specific patient's medical condition. The viewpoints expressed in this CME activity are those of the authors/faculty. They do not represent an endorsement by The Cleveland Clinic Foundation. In no event will The Cleveland Clinic Foundation be liable for any decision made or action taken in reliance upon the information provided through this CME activity.

HOW TO OBTAIN AMA PRA Category 1 Credits™, ANCC, AAPA, ACPE, IPCE Contact Hours, OR CERTIFICATE OF PARTICIPATION:

Go to:

http://cce.ccf.org/ccecme/process?site_code=main&activity_session_code=EKCE027 to log into myCME and begin the activity evaluation and print your certificate. If you need assistance, contact the CME office at myCME@ccf.org

Copyright © 2026 The Cleveland Clinic Foundation. All Rights Reserved.

Podcast Transcript

Kelly Hancock, DNP, RN, NE-BC, FAAN: Hello and welcome to Beyond Leadership, a Cleveland Clinic podcast where we explore the many dimensions of leadership. I'm Kelly Hancock, Executive Vice President, Chief Caregiver, and Administrative Officer here at Cleveland Clinic, and I'm thrilled to have you join us. In this podcast series, we will feature conversations with remarkable thinkers and uncover how their insights and experiences are shaping the future of leadership in healthcare. Now let's turn it over to our host, who will guide us through today's enlightening conversation.

Jim Pae, MSOD: Hello everyone. I am your host, Jim Pae, and this is Beyond Leadership. Today I am joined by two highly respected leaders of Cleveland Clinic, Serpil Erzurum, MD, Executive Vice President and Chief Research and Academic Officer, and Brian Harte, MD, president of the East Submarket.

The future of healthcare isn't just about technology, treatments, or new facilities, it's actually, about people. At the heart of every breakthrough, and every patient experience, are our caregivers. These are the people who bring healthcare to life, but the demands on caregivers have never been greater. Rising patient volumes, increasing complexity, and the weight of financial and operational pressures all take a toll. Ensuring our caregivers feel fulfilled in their work is key. That's why engagement is no longer just a nice to have—it's actually essential. When caregivers feel trusted, supported, and valued, they are more resilient, they are more innovative, and better able to deliver the kind of care every patient deserves.

And the connection is clear. Engaged caregivers drive better patient outcomes and create more meaningful patient experiences. Trust, in particular, is the foundation. It allows caregivers to speak up, collaborate, and adapt in ways that directly improve care.

This podcast explores the truth; that the future of healthcare depends not only on clinical and financial strength, but on how well we engage and empower the people delivering care every day. We can recognize that the drivers of engagement exist within various domains of an organization: the organization itself and its culture, leadership, and even the caregiver interactions. Oftentimes though, it does fall to the leader to create that enabling culture and address barriers that may limit us [from] creating trust and even psychological safety.

So just to kick things off, I'm curious, how do you use your leadership to promote a culture in which caregivers truly can thrive in the work that they do? Serpil, can I ask you to start?

Serpil Erzurum, MD: Well, first, this is such an important topic, and I am really looking forward to talking about this. It's something that I think, as leaders, we all work on continuously. One of the most important ways to establish trust is through communication and transparency. It doesn't always mean—at least from how I try to approach it—it doesn't always mean communicating answers or what to do. 

So, I feel that a lot of trust can be established through curiosity and communicating questions to learn more about that other person. So, communication for me is not just telling, but listening and learning.

Brian Harte, MD: I think I would add to that a few things. The first, which Serpil sort of started with, is trust—is always earned. It is never given for free. And it is not a function of your title; it's not a function of your position. It is a function of the integrity with which you interact with your team and your caregivers.

So, with that in mind, I think I would add two things. One is, especially within our organization, which values availability and accessibility of clinical leadership: Being visible to your entire team of caregivers, obviously not all at once, but as opposed to being ensconced behind a closed door, is really critical. And I think just as an example, I make a point every single day to get out of my office with intent, with purpose. Somewhere at whatever site I happened to be at. Today, it was at Mentor and today it was at Hillcrest, to be visible. And as Serpil said, talk to caregivers and ask questions to show that curiosity, and be available to answer their questions where you can.

The second attribute, in addition to availability or accessibility, I would add that builds trust is role modeling humility. I think when you say, I don't know, when you acknowledge your mistakes, when you apologize to folks, that I think is leveling and earns trust [from] people because it shows we are showing each other our humanity when that is the case. And if I know anything about any of us on any given day, it's that we are going to make mistakes. And so, for all of us, there is plenty of opportunity to role model those behaviors. And I think when leaders do that, it is exceptionally powerful.

Jim Pae, MSOD: I would agree with that—A hundred percent. Doing so it sounds, as both of you feel as though there is a presence that you have and a self-awareness that you have of being a leader. How do you maintain that sense of self-awareness to ensure you are creating the desired trusting culture?

Brian Harte, MD: Part of that self-awareness is that we all have blind spots [along] the way; we don't fully appreciate the way in which we are perceived. And the best, and only way that I know of, and some advice I got from, Gus Kious, the last president of Huron Hospital, was that the hallmark of leadership is that a great leader always welcomes feedback.

And so, I think the short version of the answer to your question is you ask for feedback from everyone around you. And in fact, when I start a new role, I tell people, I'm going to ask you for feedback. It is part of your job to be honest with me and tell me how I am perceived. And sometimes that's reactive. Like you might say: Hey, how did that go? Or in a certain situation, you might ask for that feedback. But I also think you can be proactive and say, Jim, I'm about to go give a talk, I'd like you to, to give me feedback afterwards on how I presented myself. Here is what I'm trying to accomplish.

Here is how I plan to accomplish it from the standpoint of how I present myself. And I'd like you to give that feedback. And show that you are, again, going back to role modeling, show—the old adage feedback is always a gift—and show that when that feedback isn't sterling, that you take it well. And nobody likes to be criticized. But that's how I think, how we close that blind spot and make it as small as possible.

Serpil Erzurum, MD: I agree with Brian. I think you have to be active in the pursuit of feedback. You cannot make assumptions. And what I try to do is something very similar. If I am in a group or with an individual, I'll come back and think about it and ask individuals how did they think the meeting went.

How were their feeling during the meeting and afterwards, [what was] the clarity around the communication? What did they think I said, as opposed to what I believe I said?

I think you have to be very active and then really welcome the criticism because people can pick up when you are really not sincerely looking for it. It is a great gift to anyone because it is a lot of work for the individual giving you that feedback. And there is some risk of giving feedback to a leader. So, to be sensitive to that and open to it.

The other thing that I would say about myself, for self-awareness, is that sometimes I will have a certain response, a feeling that I have when I'm listening to others, and I'll have an immediate reaction as to a gut feeling of it's great or it's bad or it's indifferent. And when it is so immediate, I'm always a bit suspicious of myself. Why did I like that so much, <laugh>? Or why did I dislike it so much? What caused me to feel fearful of it?

And then I have to walk away and I need, I call it, I have to process that. Let me go back and examine why I felt that way when the person said or did a certain thing. And then I really explore that feeling. Where does it come from? Knowing that all my colleagues are here to serve the enterprise and are really well motivated. Everybody's well motivated.

So then if I can understand a bit more about me, then I will come back to that conversation. So sometimes I think responsiveness is really important when you need me to respond immediately. Other times I think it is okay to give a break before you respond, even sleep on it, [and] come back the next day before you give that response. That is how I try to keep myself aware of what is going on in me in response to others.

Jim Pae, MSOD: I'm hearing a couple things in that there is a level of authenticity of who you are and even a little bit of vulnerability too, in terms of opening yourself up to others. In our organization and many healthcare organizations, there are either legitimate or implied hierarchical structures, which may create kind of a disparity in terms of how equally we may be able to trust one another. How do you contemplate that and maybe work to break down some of those particular barriers?

Brian Harte, MD: I think one of the earliest lessons I had as a, executive leader at Hillcrest many years ago was sitting around the table with the executive team and having this epiphany that surrounded by people who are experts in operations, and nursing, and pharmacy, and HR, and legal, and finance, that I wasn't, nor did I have to be the smartest person at the table. And my job was not to know everything. My job was to actually facilitate the conversation, and depending upon how the decision was made, and sometimes I had to make a determination about it, how a decision was made. My job was actually to recognize and draw out the expertise at that table.

And there is a big difference between being a team lead as the content expert, which I think [for] many of us, that's kind of our clinical world, and being the team lead on a team where each person has fairly profound depth of expertise. So, I think part of that trust building is showing that you defer to individuals who know more about their area than you do. And [they] can see then that your role is to help the entire group synthesize the best information that everybody has to make available so they can make the best decision possible.

Serpil Erzurum, MD: Yeah, and I agree with you again, when you have different disciplines around the table with different expertise, it is really exciting to see the solutions you can come up with. But you have to literally trust the situation to move forward in the right way. That perhaps, what I want to do won't happen because with the group involved, we are making a better decision. And it might not be exactly what I had intended, but I am always grateful that this outcome probably means it is sustainable, and the team will work hard to achieve it because we have agreed on that joint objective.

A shared objective can be very powerful in building trust. When you're on a team with leaders, with multiple teams, and you really can get to that shared agreement and you believe in it, then you're moving quick, you're moving fast, and great things happen, and then everybody feels happy then that builds trust. <laugh>, I think that builds trust.

Brian Harte, MD: Everybody might not feel happy, but it is critical that everybody feels heard.

Serpil Erzurum, MD: Yes.

Brian Harte, MD: And, obviously, there can be a big difference between those two. And I think there are tools we learn through some of our leadership training that help us make sure that everyone is heard in the conversation, even if everybody is not made happy by the final decision, whatever it is. And however, it is made, group consensus or maybe an executive, a single leader's decision.

Jim Pae, MSOD: So how do you do that? How do you foster an environment where people can be heard?

Brian Harte, MD: I think there is a number of tools we can rely upon in addition to some of the softer skills like body language and eye contact, in your facilitation of a conversation. Going out of your way to make sure everyone has the opportunity to speak and speak equally. And there is some of the serving leader tools that we have been taught or picked up through exposure to others that help us do that.

I think a particularly powerful one, a specific behavior that I actually try to show awareness of—in myself and ask others for simple feedback on—is interrupting. I think if you look at many group dynamics and just sort of take a score of how many times people interrupt each other and how many times you interrupt somebody else; it can be kind of surprising?

And it works for any setting, whether you are talking to a patient, asking somebody to just observe how often you interrupt, or even that others interrupt a patient, or in a conversation, or in a group dynamic. If you really pay attention—I think one of the jobs of a leader is to draw out or give everyone the opportunity to participate equally in a conversation.

And the second is to facilitate a respectful conversation. And I think one of those key leader behaviors, or I should say the opposite of which can undermine trust in that process very quickly, is feeling like you are interrupted.

Serpil Erzurum, MD: I'm going to use that. I love that <laugh>, I think...

Jim Pae, MSOD: We are all learning here.

Serpil Erzurum, MD: .... keeping track of how many times individuals were interrupted in a meeting. I think that would be a very helpful metric. I have been in meetings where folks have been speaking over each other, and you can feel the tension in the room, and they are not hearing each other speak.

Brian Harte, MD: And it is particularly powerful, I've found as the leader who is facilitating that to call it out and say, hang on, Serpil, let's let Jim finish his thoughts and his contributions, and then you'll be up next. And so that kind of level sets, that simple leadership insertion can facilitate a much better conversation. And again, it reminds us of what the norms and the standards ought to be for those conversations.

Jim Pae, MSOD: There is that old adage, that what you permit, you promote. So, if you offer the opportunity for someone to continually show that behavior, then maybe they feel as though that is acceptable. So, indeed. But you were going to add something?

Serpil Erzurum, MD: I was just going to say that when that happens and you look around the room, you will see some very quiet people... Who you are missing out on, what might they be saying? So, this idea of getting everyone in the room engaged in some way so they can be heard, I think it is very powerful.

Jim Pae, MSOD: Yes. Inviting people in oftentimes can be a really great strategy. So, creating that fair environment and bringing people along with you oftentimes does address those power dynamics, that people's voices are equal and encouraged to be shared. Serpil, you kind of kicked us off in our conversation today about the idea of communication.

And not only outward but also listening. I think there is something really substantive to that indicating that trust does tend to grow when leaders are transparent in their communication. That they are empathetic in the way that they engage with one another. How would you clarify a little bit more, in terms of your strategies around bringing transparency and empathy to foster a sense of trust through your communication style and strategy?

Serpil Erzurum, MD: Well, I think communication can be very difficult because there's cultural aspects to communication, different ways that people will communicate on different teams even.

So, trying to understand what would be clear to one person might be very different than another. So, what I try to understand is how much communication, and how often do you really want to know?

One thing that I particularly do not like is long emails, for instance. And if people are emailing me very long emails, and if it is very often, perhaps repetitive, I don't consider that communication. And people that know me would probably know that. So <laugh>, I would just say that likewise, if I know Jim, that you prefer not to have very succinct, you want to have details, I might attach things for you. So, I try to learn each individual's preference for their communication.

I find that when I know that about my leader, or my colleague, or my teammate, that they feel, wow, she knows that I don't want to have communication every week with a list of things for me to do. I really work hard on that because time is the most valuable thing people have in their day.

And I have got to give them time to do their work and to respect how they want to receive communication. So, there is so many ways to communicate. I don't think they are all communication, I guess is the bottom line. <laugh>.

Brian Harte, MD:  I think it also helps to know how others communicate so that you can know how to interpret what they are saying. And I will use the example of Bob Wiley, Dr. Wiley, who retired a couple of years ago. I worked for him in MED OPS, and Bob was notable for one-word emails. [Yeah.] [I’d] send him a long email, a bunch of attachments.

Serpil Erzurum, MD: Yes, that's right.

Brian Harte, MD: And he would respond, noted.

Serpil Erzurum, MD: Yes, that's right. And that was just his style. His style was not to be loquacious in emails. I think there are a few other things though, which Serpil touched on. The first is, what is it that we as leaders want to communicate?

Brian Harte, MD: I think one of the things that would be very frustrating, or a source of uncertainty, that when I look at our CEO, how does he know with confidence that what he says [are] the important points of any of his messages, are fully permeating the 80 thousand caregivers? That to me would be, I think frustrating, if I were in his shoes for a day.

How do I know there's certain things which I think are really important for our caregivers to hear, at any given moment or day or message? And how does he know that everybody's hearing those with all of the messages that we are getting through the course of our daily lives? And you can count them on many people's hands. I won't do it here, but there's so many filters, which any message has to get through. How does he know that the key ones are getting through?

The second is, as leaders, what do our caregivers want to know from us? And, I don't know that there is a way to do that without going out, and again, being available and visible and asking them.

Serpil Erzurum, MD: Yes.

Brian Harte, MD: And the third, to Serpil's point, what are kind of the norms within a given team that we are going to communicate with? I also believe I send very to the point of nearly terse, emails. I don't want to be forwarded a thread of 79 emails following a discussion. I just want it succinct, and to the point. And as my team in Akron learned long ago, before I left Akron, I'm terrible at reading long emails. I will read the first four or five sentences, and I will often have missed points, and fortunately, I was surrounded by people that are much more detail oriented than I am about such things.

But I think understanding those norms, and even as a group within a small team, deciding how are we going to communicate? And it's not just the content, it is things like weekends, and after hours, and how do we use email, versus texting, versus picking up the phone, and having a conversation. So, I think the various ways in which we can communicate now, I think require, again, another leadership conversation, which in and of itself can build trust when we follow those norms. When my team doesn't get a Sunday email from me, that is trust building. When they do get one, then wait, I thought we decided we weren't going to do that.

Jim Pae, MSOD: Yeah. Building that culture. And to your point, Brian, the idea of other people being seen for what their wishes and desires happen to be and how best to communicate with them. Absolutely.

So, from a communication standpoint and from a trust standpoint, one thing that is oftentimes difficult is rebuilding trust. So, in the event that there may be a trust break, maybe we were not our best, in the moment. How would you suggest from a leadership standpoint, from a team standpoint, what's your strategy to support people rebuilding trust so that the mission, of them as caregivers, as they show up to work every day, can be fulfilled and the mission of our organization can be fulfilled?

Brian Harte, MD: Well, that is a tough question. <laugh>. I can think of times rarely that I can think of off the top of my head when I kind of broke the norms, as you said, not my best moment. And I think, again, that is where you have to demonstrate your own fallibility and humility. And in the case, I'm thinking of, is that my leadership team and I interrupted somebody and said something flippant, meant to be funny, but it wasn't. And so just going to that person, and not one of those—if I upset you then I am sorry—No, I did upset you, and I am sorry. There is a big difference, and the word choice matters.

And empathy matters. I upset you; I made a mistake. I'm sorry. Acknowledging that to some extent, in that particular case to the team was also a critical part of my own rebuilding trust and reinforcing the norms. I did something which I said we weren't going to do, and it has to start and end with me, from the standpoint of the role modeling.

So when it comes to others, some of the advice I give, which is, you know, you can't rebuild trust until you've acknowledged to the person, people, group, whatever, that you've broken their trust and that trust means everything to you.

And you blew it. And that is okay. Like I said, we all, we are all going to make mistakes before we go to bed tonight.

It's rather how we respond that starts you on that journey. But it has to be gone after with terrific empathy and humility, and people will see through it immediately if you try to couch it in the language or behavior other than, I blew it.

Serpil Erzurum, MD: I don't recall the exact saying, but something about it takes a lifetime to earn trust and a minute to lose it. And when you have the trust of people, you have to hold it as a very precious thing. A very, very precious emotion, that they trust you, and it can be a lot to hold their trust. Really, it's what leaders do, and we think about it so much, we are proud of having people's trust, but it is a burden because we are imperfect people. And the few times that's happened to me, I've been very, very grateful for the kindness of the people that could acknowledge it is okay.

They could see that I really felt badly. And so, I have adopted that when things happen, as Brian says, things happen, we are human beings, that I can look at colleagues or leaders and say, it's okay, because nobody's perfect.

And in those moments, what you are looking for is kindness, and to be kinder than necessary to people when those things happen. I think rebuilds trust more than ever, they can see you as a vulnerable person that needs their kindness for things that we can't always control.

Brian Harte, MD: I think in cases like that instance, it is a pivotal moment, because like you said, if you are sincere, it actually can quickly rebuild trust. If you are insincere, you will just keep backsliding.

And its moments when you have violated that trust that will call into question, your character and your integrity, and others are looking at you to see how you respond to that.

Jim Pae, MSOD: I think that's very insightful. I think there are, in the industry in which we work, for lack of a better term, there are a number of stressors that everyone experiences every day from a clinical side, from an organizational side. And that doesn't necessarily allow us to be our best person, every day. And the number of the teams that I've worked with in the past, the idea of giving people a little grace, to understand that I may have not shown up the way that I wanted to, but to your point, Brian, let me rectify the situation.

How do you feel that trust really fosters engagement overall within the organization? You know, we talk about people coming to work every day, knowing their why, their purpose, recognizing that they probably can't achieve it all on their own, that they're going to have to engage with other people through their teams and through their partnerships. How do you feel trust supports them in being that caregiver who goes home and says, that was a good day. I have fulfilled my purpose for the moment.

Brian Harte, MD: I think people choose their careers in no small part, based on the why, based on the sense of purpose. And of course in healthcare, I think we feel very strongly about that, but there's many other careers in which people follow their sense of purpose. But I think on a day-to-day level, or if you were to go to a nurse, a therapist, a tech, or even somebody who's not in a clinical setting and say what makes for a good day versus a not a good day, it's the teamwork. It's the other people, and the idea that they know they can trust their coworkers. And I think you can best trust your coworkers when you can also trust your leader.

It's not always synergistic that way, but I think that's the nirvana that I think we're all trying to achieve as leaders, that our teams trust us not to have all the answers, but to work with them in doing the best job that we all can today. And if you think of the days when a nursing unit is short staffed, or an office is short staffed, or things go haywire in the OR in a way that they weren't expected, I think what people will fall back on, in an affirmative way, to get through those days and have a positive reflection is the trusting, working and maybe personal relationship that they have with their coworkers.

Serpil Erzurum, MD: Yeah, I agree completely. When you come to work and it is stressful in the environment at work, if you are having a particular challenge, there's no measure of gratitude that can be expressed for when you call for help, people show up, and the trust in your team that you are not alone in this. I joined the Clinic many years ago, and I remember the first week here at Cleveland Clinic, I had an issue, and I had help right away from my colleagues, and I had never experienced that before to tell you the truth. And I thought, oh, this is Cleveland Clinic. And they said Serpil, just bring the patient down. I said, now? <laugh>. I said, now, wow, great. I'm bringing them <laugh>. And that feeling has not gone away. That if you really need help, they are all there to help you without a moment's hesitation. And I love that about working here.

Jim Pae, MSOD: Brilliant. Just as we close up today, we have talked about a host of things around communication, engagement, trust, and fostering a sense of purpose within ourselves and within our teammates. Just curious if you have one final thought,[or] advice that you might give someone in order to advance their leadership, or advance their approach to engaging their teams, building trust, either within their teams or in the multidisciplinary world in which we work, across silos, breaking down some of those barriers, just a final thought would be really helpful.

Serpil Erzurum, MD: Well, this has been so helpful to me. I learned a lot today, so thank you, <laugh>. And a final thought to share might be as leaders, to give yourself the same compassion that you give to those on your team and to really allow yourself to have time to recover the energy you need to do your work. I think sometimes we can all be, at the end of the day, pretty spent in our energy. So, for individuals listening to this, teammates, leaders, whoever have some compassion for yourself, take time for yourself would be my advice. It is well spent time.

Brian Harte, MD:  My advice is similar, it's going to sound differently, but at the end of the day, I think it has everything to do with some of the principles Serpil, as you said, and that is to remember that prioritizing is not about saying yes, it's about saying no, and to be comfortable with the things that you will not get done today or this week or this month.

The list of to-do items is always going to be infinite, to the extent that on any given day, you might actually chip away at it meaningfully. Within 48 hours, it will be back up to its unmanageable state. That's just the nature of healthcare, and our dispositions as people that are perfectionists. But prioritizing that list of to-do items into the things you have to get done, the very few, and the things that you are not going to get to today and maybe ever, has to be okay. You just have to learn for that reality to sit well enough with you that you can go home at the end of the day and feel like you've done important work, understanding that you're never going to be able to get everything done that that is on that list.

Jim Pae, MSOD: Very insightful. Serpil, Brian, thank you both for being here.

Brian Harte, MD: Thanks, Jim.

Serpil Erzurum, MD: Thank you very much.

Jim Pae, MSOD: This concludes another episode of Beyond Leadership. You can find additional podcast episodes on our website, clevelandclinic.org/beyond leadership, or subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, Google Play, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.