Becoming a Leader of Leaders with Marc Harrison, MD

Podcast Transcript

Brian Bolwell, MD: Welcome to Beyond Leadership: At the Intersection of Leadership and Everything else. In this Cleveland Clinic Podcast, we will commingle with extraordinary thinkers and explore the impact of their ideas and experiences on leadership and management.

Today, I'm really excited to introduce you to a very good friend of mine, Marc Harrison. Dr. Harrison is the President and Chief Executive Officer of Intermountain Health, and has served in that role since 2016. Marc, welcome.

Marc Harrison, MD: Hey Brian, it's great to see you, great to speak with you.

Brian Bolwell, MD: Well, I've been looking forward to this for a long time. So Marc, your leadership journey has been fascinating. Why don't you fulfill our listeners in on a little bit about you, you started off as a pediatric intensivist, is that not correct?

Marc Harrison, MD: I did, in fact, I actually started my pediatric career here in Utah where I'm living right now. I was a resident and a pediatric critical care fellow at Primary Children's Hospital. We're actually going to duplicate. We actually are about to build a second Primary Children's Hospital out here. And I spent as you know, Brian, about 20 years with the Cleveland Clinic, 20 really happy years and started in the PICU and ended up being a department chairman and then meandering my way into leadership. And I've been here in Utah now for five years as president and CEO of Intermountain Healthcare and learning every day and just really a happy guy.

Brian Bolwell, MD: So Marc, you're a student of leadership and you've had a lot of wonderful opportunities, but one of the things that I thought we might start off is the idea of saying yes. A lot of times opportunities are in front of us and a lot of people have some trepidation about it. One of the most important things you did at the clinic was get us to use modern business tools. We now have dashboards that we take for granted, but really you were the architect behind all that stuff. Can you tell us a little bit about how that happened?

Marc Harrison, MD: Brian, it's funny. I've always taken a play the winner approach to an organization. And we actually had a really pretty good data warehouse at Cleveland Clinic when I started working in medical operations. And a zillion dashboards were getting created and quite frankly, no one was looking at any of them. There was like a whole industry under itself to ask for a dashboard to be built and then two people would look at it and nothing would ever happen. And to be honest, I was a bit frustrated by our performance on a number of things, particularly safety and quality, which as a clinician is what really keeps me up at night.

Business stuff is fine, money is a tool to get things done. The way we take care of other human beings is what really counts. And despite our vaunted reputation at the clinic, we actually were average at best on a lot of things. And I was really interested in helping our leaders begin to organize themselves around succeeding on behalf of the people we served. And began the process of creating some of these dashboards, which I think have evolved very significantly and much better than when I started them. And I think with commensurate improvement and performance, and maybe even more importantly, alignment of the organization around the things that really count. So yeah, that's been a tenant of what I've tried to do.

Brian Bolwell, MD: How did you get involved in operations in the first place? You're brilliant at it, but that's not something that all physicians are good at. In fact, many aren't?

Marc Harrison, MD: Well, maybe it was because I was such a crappy scientist. That gate that went all the way back to my fellowship. I hated the lab so much that somebody stole my pipettes while I was on service and I didn't notice for like two months. Good thing I've always been interested in clinical research and taking care of patients and how things work. But it actually started at the clinic. As you know, one of my great loves is pediatric cardiac critical care. And we actually had a very good surgical program and I know it's very, very good now again.

And we would get these kids from around the country with complex single ventricle physiology neonates, and they would come in absolutely thrashed having been given way too much oxygen or way too much fluid. Because they'd take these really viable babies. And by the time we got them, they were really in bad shape and they didn't do as well as they should have. And I started to recognize that we needed a pediatric critical care transport team, which I started. And there's a story behind that, but I got that done and it was really successful and we grew the program like crazy and got great results.

And I really drove some, I think, very strong quality performances in pediatric critical care. And then, I was asked to sit on the pharmacy and therapeutics committee that you were the chair of. And I got a front row seat in how to lead at an enterprise level. We talked and from there, I saw problems. I started to fix them and got asked to be a leader at Cleveland Clinic. It was dumb luck, but there were doors that I saw and I've never been afraid to open the door and walk through it and take some risks. And nothing good in the world happens without taking some risks. All these people would say, "Hey, I've got an MBA and now I'm ready for you to give me a leadership job." I mean, that's just bologna. It doesn't work way. It's not the way the world works.

Brian Bolwell, MD: Yeah. Well, first off I congratulate you for having survived hanging out with me on the pharmacy and therapeutics committee. That's no mean feat. Secondly boy, I think there's a lot in what you just said on two fronts. Number one doors open and you have opportunities and saying, yes, may take risk and saying, yes, I always quote Bren; Brown, may make you vulnerable. But boy, those are opportunities that you need to take very, very seriously. And the second thing that you alluded to is just because you did get a degree, doesn't really mean that much. A lot of this is about passion and perseverance. Do you see those opportunities and seize them, and even more importantly own them? I mean, you've got to own the results.

Marc Harrison, MD: I bet on gritty people, Brian. I always have, and I always will. Now some of those gritty people have fancy pedigrees. I've got a guy in my team, English guy, who grew up, went to Cambridge and a fancy pedigree of companies he worked for. I have a coal miner's daughter on my team. Heather, our chief people officer, neither of her parents graduated from high school. And she grew up in rural and poverty in rural Virginia. And she started out as an entry-level person at our insurance company. And now she's chief people officer over 45,000 people and a national thought leader. I want folks who've faced adversity and sucked it up and put their head down and gotten things done. That's who I'll bet on every single day of the week.

Brian Bolwell, MD: So as you think of your leadership philosophy that's so important, finding the right people and the whole grit part. Angela Duckworth wrote a wonderful book on Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance. And basically, the point of the book is that if you want to pick winners, that's what you go for. Because everybody gets knocked down. The question is, what do you do when you get knocked down? Do you mope, or do you get back up and say, "I'm going to give it another try."

Marc Harrison, MD: I was going to say, somebody in an interview asked me, "So Marc, what's your greatest leadership trait?" I think, I don't know what they expected some fancy philosophy. And I said, I can have a really crappy day and I go to bed and sleep my usual like couple of hours, as you know. I'm not much of a sleeper. I wake up the next morning, I'm ready to rock and roll again. I'm pretty convinced the next day is going to be okay. And that may be slightly delusional, but it seems to have worked out pretty well for me. I will say the other thing that is really important in terms of building leadership teams, no drama. The one thing I absolutely will never tolerate and never have tolerated, no got you, no making your colleagues look silly. Always being there to say, "What can I do for my colleague?"

So I do not tolerate any executive team politicking, manipulation, et cetera. And, I foster real and deep relationships between these people. And it was funny. Right before the pandemic hit and I had had my bone marrow transplant was still hoping that it had worked. And, we were at a conference and three of my leaders were sitting up on a stage and they were getting interviewed about how executive teams work. And one of them was asked, "What's the secret sauce?" And I was stunned by this. And he said, "We work really hard. We've got great alignment. Our operating model works." He goes, "But what really works is that we love each other."

And I was kind of stunned. I had never heard them articulate it that way. But when I thought about it, that's actually how they treat each other. And love isn't necessarily all gushy and soft and mushy, but its respect and it's a mutual admiration. It's having emotional capital in the bank and then drawing on it when you need to. And I really do think we've built a team like that.

Brian Bolwell, MD: Yeah. An incredibly important point on a couple levels. One is the importance of psychological safety. I mean, a lot of people know that, that's extraordinarily important, to form high functioning teams and yet it's not always practiced. And that's unfortunate. Sometimes you get a lot of spins, sometimes you a lot of fear of diverse thought and being a contrarian. And I know you like to call me that.

Marc Harrison, MD: You're the loyal opposition, as they say in the parliament, right?

Brian Bolwell, MD: Right. But, having diversity in thought is I think important. And I think it generally leads to better decisions and just a better thought process. But maybe even more important is the second point you raised about love and kindness. And one of the things that has always struck me as a leader is how easy it is to generate kindness. You can walk around a hospital, an outpatient clinic and simply acknowledge people and say, "Hi, how you doing?" And call them by their first name. And you can be uplifting to them.

It's a little silly that you've got that kind of ability to do it, but I think you do. And I'm not sure we use that enough. There's a really cool book called, Love 2.0, which talks about what you're talking about in which you can actually generate love in a 15 second encounter with somebody and just elevate their day or even their week. And certainly that's really important in teams, but it's also important, I think, in your broader constituencies.

Marc Harrison, MD: I think it is Brian. It's funny. Something that I've always loved doing is, trying to know things about people. And I know some people do that as a tool. I actually am just interested. I'm a big believer in stories and I love to read stories and listen to stories and I love to hear people tell stories. And knowing a little bit about somebody's story. Do they have kids? Do they have a hobby? Do they have something that has been tough for them that they've gotten through? And even knowing these little tidbits, is incredibly important. And I think that one of the things that I find sad at times in my job is, I have these 45,000 amazing human beings and you can't know everybody.

And, in the absence of knowing folks, you can appear to be remote and they don't understand you. And with that can come fear and confusion and misappropriation of intent, et cetera. So we just had four town halls last Thursday. A long day, we touched about 3,000 people who are leaders across our enterprise and about 400 board members across the enterprise. And, we talked about, mandatory vaccinations. We talked about the Delta surge, which we're actually getting hit pretty hard, as I mentioned to you before we started the podcast.

And of course the thing that people liked the most is my team. I have them show up five, 10 minutes early for these podcasts and we talk and we just catch up with each other. That's always the most popular thing. And what I always hear is, "Hey, you guys are real. You're regular people, you're frustrated about some things, you're excited about others. You've got a sense of humor, you tease each other." It's just funny how those little things are much more important than conveying information. We want to talk about our strategy. What they want to hear is, we're worried about them as human beings.

Brian Bolwell, MD: Again, I think that's a really important point. I think for me, it was especially true during the early days of the pandemic. I thought it was very important to communicate as much as I could about the virus and about everything that was known about it and our supply of PPE, et cetera, and what the organization was doing. But, what was really bonding, this is when I was running the cancer center was telling little stories about myself. I went to the grocery store and not only could I not find toilet paper, I couldn't find Reynolds Wrap.

I'm always pretty authentic, but boy, I sent out one of these emails saying, I'm trying to figure out which hand lotion is the best because my hands are getting all dry and cracked from washing them all the time. I got over a hundred responses of different hand lotions to try. Those things that make you human, I think are incredibly important. And I think those stick.

Marc Harrison, MD: They do. The way I turned it with my team after these town halls is we were doing our hogwash so we could do better the next time, which we always do. And I said, it strikes me that there's a Maslow's hierarchy of needs of communication. If in real life its housing and food security, transportation, et cetera. I think, when its communication is about initially, what does this mean to that person? How do they fit into it and how can they help solve the problems personally? And are they going to be okay from a job standpoint? Are they still going to have a job at the end? And, I think as we do more and more of that, I think our communication gets better and better, and the organization becomes more cohesive.

The thing that's really hard, is when you have a large, excellent legacy organization, such as Cleveland Clinic, or such as Intermountain Healthcare. It's dramatically in need of transformation, so that it remains competitive and relevant and affordable in the future. And by definition, you're going to rock the stability of your organization. How do you do that? And, I can't speak to what you guys have been doing at the clinic. I have not followed closely about how far along and really rocking that world you are, but we have done it as big time at Intermountain.

And, it's been hard. And so honoring that desire for stability and what does this mean to that person, at the same time as doing really hard things that are necessary so that one out of three Americans is rationing healthcare today because they can't afford it. That's disgusting. And we are not going to be part of that at Intermountain, we're not. But the way we're not is we actually have to continue to evolve. I got to tell you, that's probably my hardest thing in leadership is trying to balance the need for stability that our great people have and the need for change that the industry and the world demands.

Brian Bolwell, MD: So how do you do that? How do you manage change?

Marc Harrison, MD: As straightforwardly as possible and tell people why we're making the moves we did. We just closed 25 community pharmacies. It affected about 250 people. We were able to offer 80 percent of the people jobs within Intermountain. And we had outplacement services for the folks who we couldn't. But, these pharmacies have been part of the fabric of hospitals and clinics for really long time. And, the world is changing out and community pharmacies are probably in a lot of ways a dying breed. And we're losing $11 million a year on them despite the fact that we had worked really hard to try and make them viable, we couldn't do it.

And, that $11 million we will pass back along to the people who we provide healthcare to and you buy our insurance and make things more affordable for them. And I think people understood, they didn't necessarily like it. But I think increasingly understood that we must do this. That we are not here solely to serve the people who work here, we're here to serve the people who are in the community who rely on us. That man, it's hard.

Brian Bolwell, MD: Sure.

Marc Harrison, MD: And I understand why a lot of leaders just kick the can down the road and just pray that they're going to reach retirement before they have to do anything really crappy. But that's not the way I roll as you know, never have. And I don't think it's the right thing to do, but our industry has suffering to some extent, because of a lack of willingness to take this on.

Brian Bolwell, MD: Yeah. I think that all makes great sense. I want to touch base on a decision you made 10 to 15 years ago to become CEO of Cleveland Clinic, Abu Dhabi. Why did you decide to do that and tell us about the experience?

Marc Harrison, MD: As you know, it's actually almost exactly 11 years ago now that I went over. And when the project had initially been stood up, I said to Mary Carol, my wife MC, wife for 31 years, I said, "Hey, if I ever get asked to go to Abu Dhabi, would you want to go?" And she said, "You go and send the techs home." And that was her answer. And then about four years later, Toby asked me if I'd like to go. Of course, he asked me indirectly through Bill Peacock, I think. Because he didn't want me to say no to him. And I was interested and the reason I was interested is I like to try hard things. And there had been, let's be really honest, I was the fifth CEO in five years.

It was a really hard project and the clinic had acted with great integrity in some areas in great arrogance in others and straight clumsy and was a bad partner. And our partners over there were not happy with us. And I thought I could set this right. And, I just saw this as a massive door to open, to unlock additional experiences and skills that I hoped I had, but didn't really know. But if I didn't try, I would never know. And so, it was actually a really easy decision. In the interim five years I had had bladder cancer, as you know, and you helped me through that. As you did through early stages of smoldering myeloma.

And I wanted to live life and I wanted to try things that would maybe enrich us as a family, experiences. And MC was ready to go and off I went and we took a really different approach. We burned the boats, we sold our house in Shaker Heights, kept our cottage in Ellicottville. And, I was able to say with a straight face to our amaurotic partners, "I moved here." I am now your new neighbor. My kids are here, they're going to school and I'm here to get this project done. And that's exactly what we did. And it was super fun working with Tommy. He was a great chief of staff and we were joined at the hip for five years. And that was a really good five years of my life.

Brian Bolwell, MD: Tell us about how to lead in the UAE and what it was like working with different parts of the government. I'm not sure everybody on the podcast realizes that the clinic partnership in Abu Dhabi is with Mubadala, which is the arm of the government that manages venture capital, I believe. Tell us about that Marc and how all that worked?

Marc Harrison, MD: Mubadala is, I don't think they love the term sovereign wealth fund, but it's essentially a huge private equity company funded by his Highness Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed, who is quite a remarkable human being and a great leader. A truly interesting and fabulous leader. And, I think over there as in most places, the sponsorship of your project is very important. And that's true in the U.S as well. It's true in other countries also, and that was the highest and best possible sponsorship we could have. And I think really honoring that, was extremely helpful. Look, I was myself over there. At first, I tried to think about, how do I show up differently? It didn't work. I just decided to be me.

And in fact, I was really worried as I had to fill out all these security forms and although not practicing on Jewish by upbringing and they asked for religion and somebody at the clinic suggested that I not be straightforward and fill that out in a way other than the truth. And I basically said, screw that. I am who I am, either they're going to want me or I'm not. But I'm not going to pretend for anybody to be something that I'm not. And it went fine, really open, thoughtful, skillful people over there. And I treated them with respect and after a period of hazing, which was pretty brutal as you know. They treated me with a lot of respect as well. And I have very fond memories of that period of my life.

Brian Bolwell, MD: What were the challenges?

Marc Harrison, MD: Everything. We only needed to recruit 3,500 people in the middle of the Arab Spring to the call so. If this was diving, that was like a number six degree of difficulty. But, Tommy was a great recruiter of physicians and physician leaders. We did all kinds of innovative things like, we were very early users of LinkedIn and digital recruiting. We just learned like crazy. For somebody like me who loves to learn new things, it was a great example. And actually the Clinic was a huge challenge. There were certain folks who wanted to try and control us from a far. You probably know this Brian, some people thought I go got sent over there because I had done something really terrible. It was like Pappy on getting sent to that desert island.

And so somehow or other, I had gone from a very responsible position to being an outcast for some folks. You really learn who your friends were. And I think the clinic over the five years I was there got really very good at understanding how to support and provide autonomy in the right places and harmonization and others. And certainly, with Tommy as your CEO, no one could understand it better than he does. And my guess is that goes extremely smoothly right now.

Brian Bolwell, MD: So you stood up almost a 400 bed hospital that was created from scratch. You staffed it up and it's, I think kind of acknowledged that it's delivering the best healthcare in the Middle East. Pretty large accomplishment.

Marc Harrison, MD: Yeah, it's the power of teamwork. And actually for me, the most beautiful thing about it was, when we started, we had 70 different nationalities representative at CCAD. And I just loved the fact that people, different religions, different skin colors, different native tongues, and guess what? They all wanted to help humanity. And, if we could do a little more of that in the world, the world will be a better place. And, that felt like super powerful and transformative to understand the common good that human beings have.

Brian Bolwell, MD: Yeah, I think for anybody who ever visits, I'm certainly struck when I go over there with the cornucopia of cultures. People from literally everywhere are in Abu Dhabi and the team you assembled is just that. It's a huge mixture of different people from different parts of the globe. And yet they're all pulling the oars in the same direction. It's a wonderful example of a leadership success. Again, how do you get that team to be so aligned?

Marc Harrison, MD: Simple, repetitive messages that speak to mission and not ego. So our messages were really simple. This is a part of the world that people were traveling 14 hours from to get decent healthcare. Now by the way, the folks who were providing healthcare there, weren't that happy when I said that. But, we're here to change that. We're here to help young Emiratis learn to be healthcare leaders themselves, and you can see it happening now. And, the residency training programs there are turning out some really good young physicians. Many of them are women actually, which I think is very interesting and wonderful.

And we're here to give back and then we lived it. Our audio and our video matched. And I think that's one of the hugest leadership mistakes is, when you say one thing and do another. And I think we stayed after it. And, again, didn't tolerate the vergence in behavior or mission. And guess what? It works in the end. Our family motto was forward progress. Which has served us well with some of the things we've been through. And, I'd say bringing that relentless approach to this, really goes a long way.

Brian Bolwell, MD: So Intermountain approached you after that and tell us about that decision. You were very successful at Abu Dhabi and had a worldwide reputation at that stage of the game. Why did you decide to come back to the states and take over the helmet at Intermountain?

Marc Harrison, MD: Because American healthcare sucks, by and large.18 percent of GDP in the worst public health comes with an industrialized country. It's shameful. And, I wanted to be part of changing that, and I think we're actually making a good swing at that. I'd say Cleveland Clinic is one of two or three systems are the best at what you do. So if you think about highly complex, even esoteric healthcare delivery, I think no place better than Cleveland Clinic. And I regularly send patients with unusual problems to the Clinic and they inevitably have good experiences and get great care regardless of what the outcome is. Intermountain is absolutely the best at delivering value-based care in a non-parochial environment. So Kaiser actually does a very good job in a very rigid system, across huge scale.

And Greg Adams, their CEO is a dear friend and somebody that I admired greatly. I thought Bernard Tyson, who was his predecessor was fantastic as well. But they're pretty rigid. It's an absolutely monolithic, payer provider system. And they've had a hard time with growth because it's hard to replicate that outside of a current footprint. Intermountain has a payer arm, which is something, as you know, I really pushed hard when I was on the leadership at the Clinic. And it didn't take and I think it was a big mistake personally.

But, that's water under your bridge. We've had select health here for almost 30 years. We've got about a million members in it. And the idea that Intermountain had an entire region of the country, although we were primarily in Utah at that point, but our catchment area was the entire Intermountain west, with nationally and internationally known quality. In a model that was designed to keep costs down. And one where, this is where my pediatric groups come in, we've always been very interested in caring for people without regard for their ability to pay.

That is a tenant of what we do. And for me, that was a dream come true and essentially have a giant region-wide laboratory to demonstrate how value-based care and population health setting can be delivered. And there were only a couple of places in the world that I would have left the clinic for, and this is one of them.

Brian Bolwell, MD: So you've joined them. And what lessons about leadership from Abu Dhabi have you applied at Intermountain?

Marc Harrison, MD: Power of the team, power of clarity and the importance of a crisp operating model. So we talked a bit about team. I think clarity of purpose is really important. And by the way, Intermountain needed a major restructuring when I got here, which was, there's a whole other topic of what you do with a legacy system to make it look modern. But I think in Abu Dhabi, we had the beginnings during our activation of the hospital. We actually set up a really pretty good operating model. We had a great project management structure. We had clear goals. And then we started to do daily huddles, clinically as we started to come into operations. And, what I've applied here at Intermountain and then we've written about it extensively and talked about it extensively as I think the best tiered huddle system in the world.

And we stole it from their power industry and then replicated it. And we at 10 o'clock today and 25 minutes here Mountain Time, we will have a tier six huddle that the entire health system will roll up to my team for 15 minutes. And we will understand exactly what has happened across 20 percent of the landmass in the United States. Safety, quality, operationally, PR issues, whatever they might be. And in conjunction with interlocking goals from the board to the front line, allow us to run an incredibly strong operation at the same time as we innovate and disrupt ourselves. The roots of a lot of that started at the clinic with business intelligence and business planning, and then went to Abu Dhabi and understood how to do project management on a mega scale. And how to set goals and how to build teams. And I'd like to think that Intermountain is the beneficiary of 20 years of learning and growth at the Cleveland Clinic.

Brian Bolwell, MD: Very, very cool stuff. I wanted to close by asking you about, you brought up some health challenges that you've had. And I don't talk about this much about me, but, might have been different, but I've had a variety as well. And I think that they have influenced me. I think it almost becomes easier, at least for me, to have the courage to be vulnerable, to say what I think to be authentic, to be straight. Do you think that your health challenges have influenced you as a leader?

Marc Harrison, MD: Absolutely, Brian. I've been very public about this. I have multiple myeloma, it's an incurable blood cancer. By the time I went to bone marrow transplant, I was Penta-resistant. I did not respond to any chemotherapeutic agents, including the immunotherapies. My bone marrow transplant failed. And by the time I went to CAR-T therapy now, almost 18 months ago, I was really sick and out and kind of out of options. And I'm in complete remission at this point in time. I feel great. I'm training for Ironman, I got a charity slot at Kona. I have no idea how much longer I'm going to live, but then again, who does? And I am not going to waste the single flipping day, and I'm going to have fun. I'm going to drink good wine. We're going to go on good trips. We're going to play outside. I'm going to work my tail off. I'm going to build great teams and leave good leaders behind, and we're going to make a difference. And that clarity of purpose is a good thing.

Cancer sucks. It changes you in deep ways, and I know you have cared for thousands of people over the years in the most compassionate way, and I'm personally grateful for that care, as you know. But man, it's just a terrible thing, but if you can do something good with it. And I think I have, I think my family has, that is powerful. So I'm impatient, I'm intentional. I want to move fast. I'm uncompromising on behalf of the people who we serve. I'm a rich white man and I never worried about losing my house. I never worried about losing my job. I never worried about whether we're going to be able to pay for my therapy that is unusual in the United States and that's wrong. And I am here to do everything I can to change that for our neighbors.

Brian Bolwell, MD: Well, I think that that's a very powerful message and probably a good way to end the podcast. Unless you have any other final thoughts.

Marc Harrison, MD: My final thought is, I'm grateful for my friendship with you, Brian. You are straight forward, you are authentic. You always put your patients and your staff first in everything you ever did. And I can't think of a better person to be in an executive leadership development role than you. I think if more people at Cleveland Clinic and in our industry rolled like Brian Bolwell, the world would be a better place. So thank for doing what you're doing man.

Brian Bolwell, MD: Well, you're very kind to say that Marc. It was interesting when you talk about feeling exiled, when you went to Abu Dhabi. To some degree, I feel the same way in this job right here. I must've done something wrong in the cancer center to get this role. But actually, it's very, very enjoyable. But I think life is about relationships. You alluded to it earlier. And I think that you and I have a very close relationship. I think that's been evident over the past 40 minutes that we've chatted.

We go back a long way. I have been a huge admirer of you for many, many, many, many, many years, and your courage and your integrity always shines through. And I believe our listeners heard that as well. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Beyond Leadership.

We welcome any topic, ideas, comments, or questions about this, or any past episodes. Email us at executiveeducation@ccf.org or by clicking on the link in the show notes. Thank you very much, everybody, and have a wonderful day.