A New Type of Grief: Coping with Coronavirus with Reverend Amy Greene

Podcast Transcript

Cassandra:  Hi, thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Cassandra Holloway, and you are listening to the Health Essentials podcast brought to you by Cleveland Clinic. Today we're broadcasting virtually as we are respecting the social distancing initiative that our community and our hospital has set for us. We're joined virtually by Reverend Amy Greene. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today, Reverend Greene.

Amy Greene:  Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

Cassandra:  Reverend Green is the director for the Center for Spiritual Care at Cleveland Clinic and today we're going to be talking about coronavirus and grief because we know right now it's a tough time. A lot of people are scared. A lot of people are struggling with their emotions and a lot of people are looking for words of encouragement and for answers right now. But before we dive into that, we want to remind listeners that this is for informational purposes only and should not replace your own doctor's advice. So, Reverend Green, times are really tough right now, I first want to start off by asking you how are you feeling? How are you doing? How are you managing all of this crazy right now?

Amy Greene:  Well, thank you for asking. I'm actually doing okay. I have a great, great team on the spiritual care team with chaplains and holistic nurses and family liaisons who help folks with paperwork at the end of life, and we're just a really good solid team that take very good care of each other. I'm also so impressed by all the colleagues and all the different people in the clinic from every possible department, places I've never even heard of until now, who are pitching in 100% to do everything they can. And actually that's so encouraging and inspiring that it's keeping me going. So we're busier than ever, but it's such important work that it really is ... it's really enjoyable in a way. I mean obviously the virus isn't enjoyable, but the work of being in such good company is really satisfying.

Cassandra:  Absolutely. And encouraging to see so many people helping right now.

Amy Greene:  Right.

Cassandra:  So there's a lot of people waking up each morning kind of going through a wide range of emotions. I know personally, as well as from those close to me, that people are feeling anger, panic, sadness, so many different emotions. Are feelings like this normal right now?

Amy Greene:  Absolutely. In fact, I would say, if anything, it would be sort of abnormal not to be feeling all of those things even all at once. I think it's a turbulent time and we're human and we're supposed to have feelings. Feelings are good, they give us lots of information. I think the important thing to know about feelings is they don't tell us everything. So while they're one important source of information, they shouldn't be the only source of information. So feeling grief, feeling fear, feeling anger, feeling frustration; those are all things that I think pretty much everybody who's paying attention is going through those.

Cassandra:  I like how you said our feelings don't tell us the whole story, they kind of just cue us into different things that are happening. I think it's interesting, I read an article the other day that said, "Feeling really angry right now could be your way of grief kind of poking through and manifesting that way."

Amy Greene:  Absolutely. I think I talk about this a lot in our chaplaincy training circles. I'm an educator as well and I talk about how a lot of us can mask our anger. Our fear can look more like anger. Certain personality types look more angry when they're afraid, others look more sad when they're afraid. You can't really tell by looking, which is why it's really important to not assume we know what other people are feeling, even if they're showing no emotion at all, we don't know what they're feeling. And so it's something we'll talk a little bit more about here, but it's basically talk about your feelings in trusted and I would say safe places that are appropriate, safe and appropriate outlets for your tears and your anger and your fears, all of it. There's good safe places to take all of that, just like there's good safe places for us to be physically.

Cassandra:  Yeah, absolutely. So I guess I want to ask you about grief specifically then. We hear so much about the five stages of grief; denial, anger, bargaining, sadness, acceptance. Do you think that what a lot of people are feeling right now are or could be those five stages of grief?

Amy Greene:  Oh, absolutely. And there's probably several more in there somewhere. I think dread probably belongs in there as well, and dread's a really powerful feeling. I think that when Kubler Ross established those stages it was very helpful at the time, but even she came around to saying, "Look folks, these aren't going to go in order and they're not going to be predictable and they're going to come back around and around. They're not going to come and go and you get to check them off the list." So I think it's important to realize that feelings are just going to continue to bubble up and stir up. And the thing about grief, maybe more than all the other feelings, is it's very sticky. And so whatever other sadnesses we have in our lives tend to get stuck to the new grief and it will dredge up old griefs that maybe haven't been completely ... well, I don't know that they're ever completely healed or processed, but haven't maybe been properly attended to, like a wound that wasn't bandaged well. And so I think sometimes grief can feel overwhelming because it's triggering other griefs and other losses. And so it's all the more important that we have outlets for talking about those feelings, and there are loads of good ones here at the clinic and we can get to that.

Cassandra:  Yeah, absolutely. So it's interesting you mentioned the feelings of dread right now, and I think a lot of people are feeling the feeling of anticipating grief. We can't see coronavirus but we know it's out there. We're anticipating, who will we lose? How will things change from it? How can we deal with that dread, with the feelings of anticipating what's going to happen?

Amy Greene:  Well, I think that's a great question. I think it's one we're all really grappling with; how much preparedness is good and healthy and how much can sort of start to border into paranoia and paralyze us from doing anything? I was thinking earlier about the people who sort of walk on the high wire, and I don't know why they do that, I'm not going to say that, but it reminds me a little bit of that, that they can't just ignore the fact that there's a huge risk that they might fall. So that sort of tension and awareness is important for keeping them alert and keeping them safe and balanced, but if they focus entirely on that, they'll fall to their own injury at least and probably death. So I think our own kind of approach to this is to have just enough awareness of the safety precautions, to take very seriously the distance between each other, to take very seriously staying at home if we absolutely don't have to be out, obeying all the things that we're being told by the medical community and the scientific community that we really do trust right now. We turn to them to do that.

Cassandra:  Sure, absolutely. I really like that analogy of the tight rope walker, being aware of your surroundings. But it's kind of like healthcare is that safety net for us, kind of being aware that there are protocols and guidelines for us to follow, directions for us to follow, but being aware that there is a risk out there I think is a really good point.

Amy Greene:  Yeah. I mean in some ways, ironically, it's the definition of mindfulness, because mindfulness means that you're aware of what's going on very keenly. Mindfulness isn't about zoning out and relaxing, it's actually about zoning in and paying better attention, but also being relaxed. So it's this interesting balance of awareness and calmness, and I think a lot of our people are trained in that way; our first responders, our physicians, they're trained to be both alert, high alert, and calm at the same time. And I think that's a good example for all of us.

Cassandra:  Absolutely. I think it's interesting, I was reading another article the other day about comparing coronavirus to 9/11. People think about before 9/11 and then there's after 9/11, the overarching fear, the loss of normalcy, and I thought that was really interesting. The article also mentioned people are grieving on a micro and a macro level for the first time in a long time together. Is there some comfort in knowing that everyone around us is also going through this tough time and also going through this grief?

Amy Greene:  I think so, absolutely. It makes me think of two things. One is that suffering is universal. There's a great story from the Buddhist tradition that a young woman's baby dies and she brings her to the Buddha and asks why her baby died and the Buddha says, "I'll tell you why, but first I want you to go into the village and bring me a handful of mustard seed from the household that has had no suffering."

Cassandra:  Interesting, okay.

Amy Greene:  And obviously she doesn't manage to get the handful of mustard seed. And so I think once we're reminded that on a grand scale we're all human, we will all suffer, we will all face death at some point, and so to be together in it ... I think the wonderful difference between this and 9/11 is that our 'enemy' is a tiny, tiny virus we can't even see without an enormous amount of help and we don't know where it is all the time. We can't see it coming. You know it is coming, we can't see it, it's already here.

Amy Greene:  So I think the wonderful thing about this is we, hopefully ... my prayer for all of this is that this teaches us not to blame someone else for our suffering. This virus does not have any respect for race, class, gender, sexual orientation, political affiliation; it doesn't care. It doesn't care at all about any of us. And so we're in this together as a human family. And as part of the natural world, we're deeply interconnected. And even Albert Einstein said this so beautifully, he said, "We're all deeply connected. We're all really kind of one big organism, but we have this optical delusion," and I just love that phrase, " An optical delusion that we're separate from one another." And I just think this is a perfect time to bring back some of his wisdom, because he was both obviously a brilliant scientist and a man of deep faith. I don't know how particularly religious he was, but he was deeply spiritual and deeply faithful that the universe ultimately was good. And so I like his image of optical delusion because we are really connected. I don't think we're six degrees of separation anymore, I think we're one degree of separation.

Cassandra:  Yeah, absolutely, I love that.

Amy Greene:  And I think this gives us the chance to really pay attention to that and honor that and even celebrate it in some ways that maybe we haven't before.

Cassandra:  Absolutely. Great, great advice there. So as a Reverend at Cleveland Clinic, what advice can you share for people who are looking to connect with their faith during this time, but because of social distancing and being in quarantine, they can't gather, they can't go to their place of worship? What advice would you have for people who are seeking out a faith based community?

Amy Greene:  Well, I just think it's a great opportunity. There's a lot of time now for us to meditate, to learn to meditate if we haven't, to pray if we haven't prayed in a while, to learn to pray if we never have. There are ways in which the communities of faith are still reaching out and doing things virtually to help people stay connected and I think that's wonderful. But I also think it's kind of a neat time to figure out what your sources of comfort and belief really are, to drill down on our deepest, deepest values and get clear about them and really make some new habits.

I think the natural world gives us opportunities to slow down. We don't usually take them, like the day and the night were designed to get us to rest and we've sort of stumped that one a long time ago. So we've figured out ways to stay so busy that we don't give ourselves time to pause and realize the preciousness of life, the amazing quality of our breath. I think it's very moving to me right now that this virus is attacking people's ability to breathe, and you think about how many times a day do people say, "Just breathe, don't forget to breathe." And I think, well, that's really an interesting thing to be going on right now, that we're having to think deeply about how to breathe, literally help other people breathe. Some folks on the front lines are breathing for them with machinery and other aides. And so can we, as a human race, slow down a little bit and understand what's really important; the preciousness of life, the preciousness of our own ability to breathe? Most of us don't even think about it. And I think we have a lot of opportunities. So I would say seize the moment and start finding those new sources of hope and courage for yourself. There's lots of help out there.

Cassandra:  Absolutely. For sure. And so you mentioned a little bit about techniques and being more mindful and remembering to slow down and breathe. So a couple of times throughout the day, and I know people around me experience this as well, we'll kind of forget what's going on for a couple minutes, especially first in the morning when you first wake up, it kind of takes you a couple seconds to remember the state of the world right now. For those who are ... when those feelings hit they can be really intense and you kind of start panicking; are there any techniques to help us work through these intense feelings to make it a little bit less intense and to help us work through what we are feeling?

Amy Greene:  Yes. I'm really glad you asked. I think the main thing is really not to try to push them away. Again, I think we stay really busy, especially in our culture ... well, probably in most modern cultures, we just stay extremely busy. And part of that is, I think, a way of distracting ourselves from this fear of death, which is really always part of being alive. It's really part of being human. I mean our animal friends don't run around worrying about it. There's this great book called Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers, they don't sit around worrying about dying. They either run from the tiger or they don't. And as human beings, we don't do that. We ruminate and we worry and we project into the future, and I think often we stay very busy to keep from doing that.

Amy Greene:  So I would advise we don't try to run so fast all the time from those thoughts, and when they occur, just take a pause. Take something simple like a candle and have it with you all the time and when you feel that panic coming on, pull out your little candle, lick it on, electric of course, put it in your hand and just take some deep breaths and remember the good things in your life. Remember that you can breathe. Just tell yourself positive affirmations for just a minute or two. It doesn't take very long. And give yourself permission to just feel those feelings. If you will let them come ... you can't prevent them. Feelings are formed pre-consciously, so we can't stop feeling what we're feeling and we can't stop our thoughts. They're going to blurt out no matter what.

Amy Greene:  And if we just allow it, it doesn't mean we have to be happy about it, it just means we try very hard not to like it or dislike it. We just say, "Okay, I'm feeling anger right now," or, "I'm feeling fear right now," or, "I'm feeling absolute dread right now," and let me just stay with it for a minute and it will always pass.

Amy Greene:  Most feelings last about 90 seconds. I mean, scientists have actually measured this and it's pretty amazing because people will say to me as a chaplain, "I can't start crying over that. I'll never stop." And I'll say, "Yeah, you will. Let's time it. Go ahead, start crying, and let's just see. I can sit with you as long as it takes." And I can always guarantee that because I know I always have at least that long. People will stop crying. And it feels longer than it is because it's so intensely painful, but sometimes I think holding it back is hurting even more. So I would just say try to let it come and try to let it go. You don't need to get all wrapped up in it and stoke the fires and make it worse, but you also don't need to be so afraid of it if you can help it. And again, there's loads of supports for how to learn to do that, with other people, with other podcasts, with other meditation guides. There's lots of resources out there.

Cassandra:  Sure. I think you hit a really good point when you said the feelings lasts for 90 seconds. It's temporary, and I think it's important to remember that this situation is temporary, even though sometimes it doesn't feel that way.

Amy Greene:  That's right. Right.

Cassandra:  So you talked a little bit about this a little bit ago, about just using this situation to kind of slow down and not be so busy, but I'm curious, what good do you think will come from this? What can we learn from this situation?

Amy Greene:  That's a great question. You know, it's funny that I said not be so busy because in some ways I'm busier than I've ever been. So it has more to do with how busy we are on the inside and how chaotic we are on the inside. And so I think what this is giving us the chance to do is, again, sort through some things and get down to the essentials, get down to what we really value. So I'm busier than ever, being available basically all the time to anyone who might need to talk to me or my team, but I don't feel exhausted by it because it feels so meaningful and so purposeful. Now, put me in 42 meetings in a row and make me do PowerPoint slides, I'm exhausted within 15 minutes. I mean, everybody who knows me knows I hate PowerPoint.

Amy Greene:  So I think it helps us do the things that we love and care about and get clear about what those things are so that when we're on the other side of this, we can make sure we build more of those things into our lives. And we say, "Look, these are the things I'm going to spend my time on, and these are the things I found I could do without. I didn't actually need to do a lot of the stuff I was doing and thought was so important, and I realize now it didn't give me much life and I don't really miss it and I'm going to do less of it." So I think there's loads of opportunities, and it's hard to say that when people are suffering. I mean you don't tell someone who's got an avalanche falling on their head, "This is an opportunity;" that's not appropriate. But I think for all of us in the midst of this, there are some times when we're just stuck and waiting and we might as well use that time productively to think through how do we want to spend our time once we have the freedom and the right to get busy as hamsters again.

Cassandra:  Absolutely, what's important to us, what have we been taking for granted? What can we let go of, like you said.

Amy Greene:  Exactly.

Cassandra:  So we know that this is a worldwide issue, so as a Reverend at Cleveland Clinic, is there a global saying or message that you think people across all different walks of life can find comfort in?

Amy Greene:  You know, it's such a good question because every great religion teaches some version of the same thing, which is to treat other people as you would have them treat you, or I think even some of them are more specifically treat them the way they want to be treated. And theoretically that should be something close to the same thing, which is be respectful of others, be kind to others, respect their beliefs, respect their right to be different from you, respect their right to feel differently about things, to do things differently. That's the golden rule, that's the second great commandment. It comes from the Hebrew scriptures, the Christian scriptures, the Buddhist scriptures. It comes from pretty much every great religion that I know of, to say treat people with kindness and compassion and generosity and fairness, because that's what you want for yourself and things will work out a lot better.

Cassandra:  Absolutely, yeah. Like you said, the golden rule that we've all been taught or have heard at some point in some fashion.

Amy Greene:  Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Cassandra:  That's great. So the last thing I want to talk to you about here, we've mentioned it a couple of times; finding that support and reaching out. So we've mentioned that it's normal to feel a wide range of emotions right now, that's normal. But if someone is really struggling, it's really crippling them, the panic, the sadness, the feelings of loss, where should they turn? Who should they reach out to?

Amy Greene:  Not to sound self-serving, but the spiritual care department really is available 24/7. We have what's called a grief and relief hotline. That number is answered 24/7 by a chaplain who's awake and on duty. And I would say that that's a great place to start because sometimes people don't want to burden their own family members, they don't want to call their best friends because they know their best friends are worried too. And they want to talk to someone whose job it is to listen, and honestly, whose training is such that it will not overburden us. And I can really assure people that it will not, we are trained for this the way a firefighter is trying to go into a burning building. We really are trained highly for this.

Amy Greene:  So I think that that hotline is really useful and we mean for people to use it. We want people to call just to talk and maybe help normalize some of the feelings, help people not feel like they're burdening others, help people ... they don't even have to tell us who they are if they don't want to, they can use their first names or ... we don't chart on them, we don't keep any record of it, it doesn't cost anything. And it's called the grief and relief hotline, it's all over the place on our Cleveland Clinic websites. And I think that's a great place to start. We also have the wonderful Caring for Caregivers program where people can do longer term counseling if they want it, and they also are available for phone conversations, shorter conversations. And then we just have all kinds of supports out of the ... the office of caregiver experience is doing some amazing work.

Amy Greene:  So I think there's loads of people out there that you can talk to that are a little more ... you're not burdening your best friends and your family and your aging parents or whatever, you can offload on us, that's what we're here for. And we want to do it, it's something we're good at, it's something we've all felt called to do and appreciate being able to do. Again, just like a firefighter really is proud that they can go in and help when everybody else is sort of running from the building. And that's kind of what chaplains do when there's an emotional fire or a spiritual fire; we don't run away, we run toward. So please do use that resource. And then, as I said, lots of others online. The Cleveland Clinic's just amazing and some wonderful things are popping out all the time. So there's obviously more than just us.

Cassandra:  Yeah, absolutely. I think taking advantage of any of the counseling services online or forums or virtual visits or appointments that therapists or mental health professionals or even chaplains are offering, I think is really good advice.

Amy Greene:  Yeah.

Cassandra:  Perfect. Great. So that's all the time that we have today. Thank you Reverend Green for joining us today. You have been so helpful and I know myself included and the listeners will be impacted by your wisdom that you shared with us today.

Amy Greene:  Thank you for the chance to share. I appreciate it.

Cassandra:  Absolutely. So to find additional grief support and resources and the hotline number that Reverend Green was talking about, visit clevelandclinic.org/grief. If you want to listen to more Health Essentials podcast featuring experts at Cleveland Clinic, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts from or visit clevelandclinic.org/hepodcast. And don't forget to follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram @clevelandclinic, all one word, to stay up to date on the latest news and information about coronavirus, as well as your own health and wellness. Thanks again for listening. Stay safe and remember to be kind and support one another.