The Toddler Listening and Boundary Struggle

Podcast Transcript

Dr. Richard So:

Welcome to Little Health - A Cleveland Clinic Children's Podcast that helps navigate the complexities of child health one chapter at a time. In each session, we'll explore a specific area of pediatric care and feature a new host with specialized expertise. We'll address parental concerns, answer questions, and offer guidance on raising healthy, happy children. Now, let's talk Little Health.

Is your toddler testing your limits? It's frustrating, but totally normal. I'm Dr. Richard So, a pediatrician at Cleveland Clinic Children's. And today, on the final episode of our season on primary care, we're talking about how to help young children learn and practice positive behaviors. We'll cover easy ways to set rules and what to do when kids just won't listen. My guest today is Shannon Thompson. She's a pediatrician and also a mom.

Welcome back to Little Health, Dr. Thompson.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Thank you so much for having me back. Um, really happy to be here today.

Dr. Richard So:

Yeah. Tell us about yourself.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Like you said, I am a pediatrician. I'm just general practice, general pediatrics. And I have two little ones, uh, ages two and four, both girls. So trust me when I say that I am in it right now too.

Dr. Richard So:

Yeah. This, this topic is perfect. The toddler listening and boundary struggle with your kids, and just learning how to parent. Uh, I think parenting, it's so much fun-

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

... if you learn how to enjoy it. But for some parents, it's a struggle. You know, we're learning how to give carefully directed advice to these parents to teach their kids to solve these problems. Tell me about, like, when do you start, in your practice, setting limits?

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

As early as possible. Oftentimes, even with tiny babies, we talk about, you know, what their needs might be and, you know, what their cries might mean, things of that nature. But even when they start to get into their, you know, six month crawling stage and things of that nature, gently setting those boundaries and, and talking them through is a, is a good place to start.

Dr. Richard So:

Yeah, I agree. Uh, I don't know if you breastfed your kids, but I think setting limits starts at when they're babies.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

Uh, I went to a, a conference one time where the speaker asked everyone to raise their hand, and they said, "How many moms have been bit breastfeeding?" Every hand went up.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Uh-huh.

Dr. Richard So:

All right? And then the speaker asked, "How many moms have been bit twice?" And only like three hands went up in the crowd.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Uh-huh.

Dr. Richard So:

Well, because what happens is, is that when we're sending our limits, when that mother gets bit, she goes, "Ow," and gives a really rye face to her baby, takes the baby off, and stops feeding. I think that's where limits start.

But then you get into toddlers. In my practice, I think it's once the kids get that more of where they start walking a little bit faster, more than toddling, and they start running, I think that's where boundaries should start to be set. And that's actually the fun time to be a parent.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Right. I completely agree.

Dr. Richard So:

Tell me what happens in your practice.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Yeah, I, I completely agree. Um, once they start to get that little bit of freedom and that little bit of self, like right now, I'm a person, I'm an independent person, um, and I'm seeing the world and trying to figure out how it works, that's when you're gonna start to need to set those boundaries early. Because if not, they're gonna just run away with 'em.

Dr. Richard So:

Yeah. When they start walking, they're exploring their boundaries, and I think it's the parent's job to establish theirs.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Correct. Yes. And I think it's, it's sort of a counterintuitive thing, but kids need boundaries and they like boundaries, right? They like to feel safe, they like to know what the limits are. But until they know that, they're gonna keep pushing those limits. So really important to set those, you know, guidelines. This is what we kind of talk about. This is what we kind of expect from each other. And this is what might happen if we don't follow those boundaries and sticking to it. I think every parent has a daily experience of having a toddler who's not listening, you know, who's pushing that boundary. And kind of keeping to reinforce those, um, is really important.

Dr. Richard So:

So there's a spectrum of parenting when it comes to established boundaries. You got the harsh parent, very demanding, my way or the highway, and then there's the parents who are a little bit more free-range.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

And then at the other end of the spectrum, I think there's parents who laugh it off-

Dr. Shannon Thompson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

... when their kid's bad. And that can lead into a lot of troubles. Talk to me, what happens? We'll give you the example is the 15-month-old touching the outlet.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Right. So people are responding to it differently than we used to, right? The kind of my way is the highway is the more traditional older form of parenting. And a lot of parents now are, are talking about, you know, either gentle parenting or, or things of that nature. So the outlet, and, you know, similar like if, you know the kid hits or something, that's just like a, a hard and fast no. Um, typically what I would recommend is, you know, you have to tell them no. You know, that's dangerous, uh, that will hurt. And you may have to physically remove them from the situation, you know, pick up the 15-month-old and move them to the couch, move them to, you know, the chair. Not necessarily a time-out situation, but just to physically remove them from that source. Like, this is harmful, this is, you know, not a good idea. Let them settle and talk them through it, even if you feel, you know, an age-appropriate way.

Dr. Richard So:

Number one, I think, parents, you need to be calm-

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

... when you're making these judgments. If the outlet is covered, technically it's safe.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Correct.

Dr. Richard So:

And I, I think parents, they're really, really want to keep their kids safe, all right? So that's a safe outlet, but I think they need to give their kids a chance to make the decision right away. So I think they're, they're going right and grabbing the kid right away, and they're saying, "No, no, no, no, no." And, and that leads to troubles, you know, because overusing that word no, over time, if grandma's always waving their finger and they're singing a song, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no," and they smile when they do it, I think they send a mixed message. When if the kid does it back then the parents' grandparents smile, and then it never means no again, and you send a mixed message.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Absolutely.

Dr. Richard So:

Um, also on that part is like, when we talk about setting boundaries, we have to talk about behaviorally where there's different levels of prompts. Okay, we have the nonverbal prompt. You know, I think what we're ultimately trying to do is to get our kids to make a good decision as we're parenting. And the different level of prompts ultimately is nonverbal. It's the look that your mom gave you when you knew what not to do.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

Right? That's ultimately where you're gonna go. But in a toddler who can't talk, I think you have to learn like the verbal prompts and then the physical prompts. In my practice, I give every kid, like who touches, their two verbal prompts, and then I give a physical prompt. For example, kid touches the outlet. I like to teach toddlers like they're dogs. Okay? That's why I tell parents they can't talk to you, all right? But they understand what you're saying.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

All right? That's innately. And children, they thrive direction. They wanna be told what to do. So I think what you should do first is if the outlets covered, you just go, "Ah, ah, ah." Or, "Hey, stop, freeze." The only time I use no is when it's super danger. That's when I go hard.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

But everybody knows the look that their kid gives. You say, "Ah, ah, ah," the kid turns and looks. And I think that's an important part of parenthood where you have to learn how to have a poker face.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Uh-huh.

Dr. Richard So:

Because if you smile, all right, you're teaching that kid, "Wow, whenever I touch the outlet, it makes my parent happy."

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

And then 50% of the time, they'll move. I think an important part is, is that in disciplining your child, you have to reward.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

So when your kid moves that 50% of the time you say, "Good boy."

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

"Good choice, good listening." And then you'll get that. But sometimes they call you bluff.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

Right? And they give you the look again. And then you do your second verbal prompt. You tell them the why.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

That's not safe. That's caca, that's yuck.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

70% of the time, that'll work. "Good girl, good listening, good choice." But then on the third time, when they're touching that outlet, they're touching the dirty, shiny trash can in your room, they're, they're gonna hold their ground. They're testing their boundaries.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

And your goal is to establish yours. Then you can do a physical prompt. But I think as we've talked, it's all diversion distraction.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

A little bit.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Absolutely.

Dr. Richard So:

Talk to me a little bit about what you think is the difference between like punishment and discipline. That's a big choice.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Yeah, that's a great question. And I think the distinction is important, right? Because the root of discipline is, is to teach essentially. And punishment is obviously a negative kind of feeling, a negative kind of action. So I think it's important to look at discipline rather than punishment and not to look at discipline as a punishment. So I think positive reward systems are great. When you make a good choice, you get a positive reward. When you make a bad choice, I think it's important, like you said earlier, as the parent, to stay calm and to talk through. And when you're in a situation, um, that's emotionally charged, the, the kiddo's upset, you're upset, to wait and then have that discussion.

As far as discipline goes, I'm not a huge fan of, you know, taking things away. You know, saying things for later, like, "You know, no dessert tonight after dinner if we do this." Because they don't often make that connection, right? So if it's noon and they've made a bad choice and dinner's not till five o'clock, you get to dinner and they're like, "Well, why is everyone else having dessert?"

Um, so I think it has to kind of be in that moment. You know, we're going to change directions. We're going to do something different. You know, we're gonna stop this activity because playing with, in my house right now, we're fighting over Barbies. So playing with the Barbies, we're gonna put the Barbies up, they need a nap, you know. We're gonna play with the blocks, you know. Or sissy's gonna come with Mommy to do painting, whatever it might be, to kind of dispel the situation. But then depending on who is involved in the negative activity, having that conversation, you know, like it's important that we are kind to each other. It's important, you know, why we might be in that situation and need to talk about ways to act different or to respond better in the future.

Dr. Richard So:

How do you teach a toddler, you know, that, who has freedom of autonomy, you know, those boundaries without enabling that child? As we go through our journey through parenthood, we've talked about this a lot, that parents are afraid.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

They want to be their kid's friend.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

They don't want to discipline. And what's that hard line right there?

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Yeah. It is a hard line, right? Because, uh, it sometimes, you know if you're gonna draw that line in the sand, you know, or my husband and I always say, "It's the hill you're gonna die on today." You know? But you have to stick to it because the more you move that target or move that boundary, the more pushback you're gonna get. So how to draw that line, I think you have to decide as a parent, um, you gotta keep your kiddo safe. You know, you gotta keep them fed, you know, happy, rested. Um, but they also have to respect other people's boundaries, you know. So when you draw that line in the sand, um, sticking to it, I think is the most important part.

Dr. Richard So:

Yeah. I think modern parents are paralyzed by their innate fear of their children not loving them or not liking them, or even hating them. If you talk about the older kids and the teens, we'll get into that a little bit later.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Right.

Dr. Richard So:

But I think our ultimate goal i- with parenting is to teach our kids to be socially acceptable.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

We talk about eat, sleep, poop, grow, where our job as parents is to make them self-sufficient. You know, can you cook? Can you clean? But being socially acceptable. So you got the biting in daycare, you know, but we talked about that. When, when, when you bite, you have to say, "Oh, that hurts."

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

The other kids. And I think they don't understand the other people's feelings.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

And you have a two-year-old and a four-year-old, you know, and they may be hitting, they may [inaudible 00:12:24] thing, but you got to get the root of the cause, and usually it's sharing. Tell me about sharing in, in toddlerhood and what do you think it does to children? How do you teach it? How do you do it in your practice?

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Absolutely. This is a, a great question, and it's a tough one. So it's often one way or the other. My oldest is, is typically, "I'm in charge. This is my thing," you know? And now that her sister's getting bigger and becoming her own person, she's, "No, that's my thing." You know? And so the sharing has become a bit of an issue at home.

One of the things I like to do, which you just touched on, is how do you think that the other person feels? You know, how would you feel if, um, you know, your sister or your friend took your toy away, walked away, and that was it? Would you feel good about that? Would you feel happy about that? Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But it's a good way to start to teach that lesson. You know, like other people have feelings, other people have thoughts.

Um, toddlers are, are egocentric, you know? It's, it's all about them. And so helping them to feel good about sharing. So sharing with, you know, your friend at school, it feels nice. You know, you can both share the toy, you can both share the bike, you can take turns. Great job, good choice. You know? And I think that the more that happens, the better they feel about it. And also understanding that they are gonna get a turn too. You know, it's not, now the toy is not yours anymore. Now the bike is not yours anymore.

Dr. Richard So:

Yeah. Teaching patience, I think goes along with sharing.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Right.

Dr. Richard So:

Like that two-year-old, uh, we've talked about it where development of the conscience of knowing right and wrong-

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

... is about four.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

And understanding feelings is like two and a half to three. So that's when we, we start to teach what we call emotional intelligence.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

It's like watching that Disney movie Inside Out. I'm happy, I'm sad. And where your kids can communicate that better to you, it's a little bit easier. But even just pretending sharing, like when you're 15 months, because when you talk about the innate egocentric part of it, and sharing the kid has something of value and they don't want to give it up. But I think about knowing that they're gonna get something in value in return, whether they'll get it back and they get that personal satisfaction in, in their own world that, "Okay, I did a good thing."

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

I agree with you 100%. It can be harder for some kids, you know, where they may not talk, they may be a little bit more special needs on that part.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

So some of our late talkers, they may not know those rules or the social etiquette of sharing. And sometimes, you know, those kids will act out or even typical kids will act out.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

If you take my toy, I'm gonna bite you.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

Let, let's keep on the note of setting boundaries. Let's talk about electronics a little bit.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Oh good. Yeah.

Dr. Richard So:

All right? Yep. That seems to be a major parenting part with setting limits and boundaries with even my own kids.

Dr. Shannon Thompson: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

I'm sure... You got a four-year-old, I got a seventh grader.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Oh my goodness.

Dr. Richard So:

I got a teenager. And it creates a lot of frustration and anger when we talk about limits with electronics.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

It absolutely does. And it does in all age groups, because even if they don't have their own electronics, they see them all day. Right? They see our phones, they see, you know, the TV, the tablet, whatever it might be. Different parents, different kids have different levels of comfort with those items. Um, I think as pediatricians, um, and, you know, moms and dads, I think we are all trying to set those boundaries. But when other people or other kids have their tablets, have their phones, have whatever it is, it makes it harder to teach that sometimes.

And so I love that, uh, the AAP, the American Academy of Pediatrics has a media plan that parents can share with their kids. Or even on the phones, they can share settings. I think it's important to have that boundary. Like, okay, so we do 30 minutes of TV time, 20 minutes of TV time, depending on the age appropriate level. I'm not a big fan of kiddos having tablets or phones when they're little, you know, especially before, um, they're really old enough to understand some of the, uh, nuances of that. And even teenagers need their boundaries, right? Because they'll be on the screen all day and it's not good for their development, their mental health, you know, their social skills even. But there's a lot of good things too. You know, there's education, there's books, that sort of thing. So all of that to say, I think, as a family, as a a group, it's important to start the boundaries early and upfront, and, and set your limits.

Dr. Richard So:

Yeah, I agree. Kids under two years old, I don't think they should be watching any screens whatsoever. I think that hypnotizes those little toddlers, and it, it can lead to late talkers

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

And they're not learning. I think, yes, parents are busy these days. We're working. Uh, you come home late, you gotta make dinner, you gotta do the laundry, you gotta keep the house. It, it's crazy at home.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

But there are times where it is okay. But I don't understand the difference between you and I sitting in front of the TV watching Flintstones, Brady Bunch, Cosby Show, Family Ties, we were on it for hours.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

And I think it's the same thing that the kids are doing, but there are lessons to be learned online. For example, my seventh grader, he's into cooking right now. He watches cooking shows all the time on how to make his ramen noodles restaurant quality. He made me a six-minute soft-boiled egg the other day.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

Um, so I think when it becomes addictive, just like adults, when you are not doing your normal tasks or not completing your responsibilities, whether it's your homework, your chores, or even with dinners, talk to me about the hardest part in your practice of transitioning off electronics. 'Cause it can lead to big feelings.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Absolutely. And big feelings in, in parents and kids. You know, it's a delicate balance because one of the things we like to talk about is how much screen time do you get a day? And almost everybody gets too much screen time, including ourselves. And I tell parents that. It's impossible, right? They're on their Chromebooks at school. They have to do their, you know, research on the internet. You know, I always tell my husband, we're on our phones all the time. So they see that and they understand that.

So some schools of thoughts, we'll have you, just cold turkey, we're gonna stop with the electronics. You know, we're gonna take a 48-hour break and try to reset. I'm not sure that that's helpful, and that can lead to a lot of either confusion or, like you said, big feelings, drawbacks. But I think in increments, it's appropriate, you know? So we're gonna put your phone, if you're a teenager, in this box at 8:00 PM and that's it, you know? Or if you're an age appropriate toddler, "We're gonna watch one 20 minute show. You can watch it in the morning or after your nap. And that's what we're gonna do." In our family, we do movie night one night a week, and that's what we do. We watch one movie, otherwise we don't watch TV in the evenings. And that admittedly was difficult because the girls like to watch Bluey and, you know, all of those things.

Dr. Richard So:

Yeah. I, I think holding your boundaries-

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Correct.

Dr. Richard So:

... i- i- is being a good parent. And sticking to your guns and not being afraid of your kids. For example, when my kids, it's time for dinner and they've been watching TV, they're electronics, I like the part where you're saying we're disciplined. You have to be nice. But I like that warning, hey?

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

Just like when we were growing up, five more minutes.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

And then we're gonna say bye-bye. Okay?

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

And then we're gonna say bye-bye to it. 'Cause every kid uses bye-bye. And you can do that ever. Another one is going to the store.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

I think going to the one with the big red circle is a big deal because every kid knows that. But I think the limits and the boundaries should be set in the car on the way there. You're gonna say, "Okay, we can get this, we can do this. We're not gonna run away. If we see cars, we're gonna hold hands." Those are good limits because you get the kid who lopes around the parking lot, you have to set those limits before you go in there. You have to set your limits on the screens, giving them five more minutes, even before bedtime, five more minutes and using rewards. And when it leads to the meltdowns and the tantrums, acknowledge the feeling to your child.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

 

Dr. Richard So:

"I understand you're mad. I understand you're frustrated." Because then the nonverbal child, that leads right to anger. And anger is normal. And, but it's also a, a part of empowerment that I can empower you-

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

... with tantrums. You know, I was walking in, in Drug Mart one time down the aisle on like one of my mornings off, and the kid didn't get the Paw Patrol yogurt that he wanted 'cause the mom wanted the more healthier one.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

The kid was kicking, screaming and the mom held her ground.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

All right? A lot of parents would get scared of their children-

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

... because that's not socially acceptable.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

And they would scoop and run.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

All right? But this wasn't crowded. And I walked by the mom without telling her I'm pediatrician, I go, "You're doing the right thing."

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

All right? 'Cause when we talk about tantrums in the phases, if they're in the peak screaming, it always comes down. And then when you get that calm resolution phase of the tantrum, that's where you make your move, where you can say you're done.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Dr. Richard So:

What do you do when your kid's tantrum?

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Well, it depends on the moment. What I, what we try to do is, like you said, if, if it's a tantrum that we have somehow instigated with a rule setting, a boundary setting, you always hold the line. And when I say that, I mean, as a parent, you should always hold your line. Because the minute you start to give, then the behavior can become repetitive because it worked the last time. I am a big proponent of naming feelings. You know, like you said, "I am sorry that you're frustrated. I understand that this is hard. I understand that you were having fun, you know, playing X, Y, Z or watching this or, but now it's time to take a bath. You know, now it's time to get ready for bed, brush our teeth."

And I think for toddlers, and almost any human transitional, time is important. You know, if somebody just kind of sort of came into the house and said, "Hey, you have to stop what you're doing and go to bed," and you're, you know, watching TV, making dinner, whatever, it would be very confusing. So trying to hold that line with the kids and say, "I think... I understand that you're frustrated. I understand that you're tired. We can do this again. You know, but right now we can't." And sometimes you have to wait. You know, sometimes you have to be calm and sit with them because it's gonna take a minute. Lowering your own voice, lowering your own temperature is important too, because if you are rising to that, it can escalate.

Dr. Richard So:

When we talk about behavior training, and there's the altruistic thing that all kids are good, but you and I know that there's always exceptions to that. What do you say to the soft parent? You know, the one who gives in all the time when their kids are crying.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

And the kid always gets their way. And that can lead to like poor socialization skills downstream, even lead to anxiety when they're not getting their way, or depression downstream. We see it because if you don't make these moves earlier in their development downstream, you end up at the psychologist. So like with parenting, you train them or they train you.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

But you see it in the office sometimes where you have a soft parent where they're following the kid everywhere. Or you see the kid with the leash, you know, the backpack leash at the airport.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

You know, what do you say to those parents? How do you carefully navigate that type of situation?

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

That's a great question. And that's a difficult situation, right? I try to empathize, and honestly I do empathize, because, you know, it, we're in a, a time where, and it always is, but it's, it's hard to raise kids. It's scary to raise kids. You wanna keep them safe. And sometimes that comes at a, maybe a detriment to development into independence.

Um, I think it's important to, one, allow that parent to feel some, you know, kind of grace. Like, we're not gonna be perfect all the time. And y- you really need to make sure that what you're doing is best for your kid in the long run and not in that moment. So starting, again, in slow stages, like let's allow, you know, them to have this tantrum. Like you can't have the Paw Patrol yogurt like you said. "And I'm sorry that you're frustrated." And as a parent, maybe I'm a little embarrassed 'cause my kid's yelling in public. But we've all been there, and I think holding your own kind of what's important, your own boundary and keeping that. But I do think in different types of parenting, the gentle parenting, you know, the soft parenting one at a time, kind of those, um, battles and letting them know, you know, you wanna be doing what's best for the kid.

Dr. Richard So:

Yeah. Because parents often regress when they don't know what to do-

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

It's how they were brought up.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

Sometimes the very passive, some aggressive. There's strong parents out there where they just can establish the look right away-

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

... and their kids would listen. But I think some parents, they need to learn to tolerate momentary anger-

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

... even hatred directed towards them.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

And what I like what you said was for the long-term consequences.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Right.

Dr. Richard So:

I think it's the parent's responsibility to discipline.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

And discipline has to do with rewards, of rewarding the good behavior-

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

... and acknowledging their feelings when it's negative. My favorite word to my kids, believe it or not, when they're not getting their way and when I wanna set my boundaries, 'cause they push, they push, they push, "Can I, can I? Please, please, please, please, please." Instead of just defaulting, "Ask your mom-"

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm.

Dr. Richard So:

... my default world is just bummer.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Yeah. And I, another powerful is "I, I am sorry that you feel that way." You know? And it, that's kind of where it stops. Like, you can keep yelling at me, but this is what's happening.

Dr. Richard So:

So the, the kids, sometimes the kids will be extreme, you know, during their tantrums.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

And they're, they've crossed the boundaries. They start hitting. How do you do timeouts at your house? And when do you start them?

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Yeah. Timeout is, it's a good question because there's mixed feelings and there's mixed information on that. In our house, there are certain situations where you're gonna have to be removed. And that is if you hurt someone else, you know, if you hit someone else, if you throw something. You know, if you're kicking, hitting, you know, hurting yourself. And that typically involves a, a warning and then oftentimes like a physical queue or a physical removal. Like, we're going to go to your room now. Uh, my oldest has a calming corner, so she was really working on her emotional regulation. And they had one at her preschool that she loves, so we made one in her room. We're gonna go to your calming corner now. And that's sort of like a timeout, but more of a, um... It can be a choice, you know? Like you can choose to go to your calming corner and sit and look at your, you know, your calming things or squeeze your stuffed animal. And you can scream and you can go in your room and close the door. But that's your separate space.

Dr. Richard So:

How long do you make them sit there?

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Typically until they calm down, and then we have a conversation. You know, I don't usually set a timer. My husband will set a timer, you know, five minutes, usually.

Dr. Richard So:

Like a minute for every year of age-

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Yeah.

Dr. Richard So:

... is what it used to be.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Yeah.

Dr. Richard So:

I like to let them sit there until, when they get a little bit older, till they're remorseful. Because my, my 7-year-old one time she goes, "Seven minutes, dad, I'm sorry." And I'm Like," oh my God." I go, "Why don't you just simmer there for a little bit more?" So then after that... And then like after a couple minutes later, "I'm sorry, dad." And I go, "Okay, go play." I think one of the biggest mistakes with timeouts is that it's a parents... They just feel the urge to say more.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

So what I tell my parents when you do a timeout is once they've done their penance-

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

... you leave them be. You don't have to teach more. Because they already thought about it, they contemplated what they did wrong, and why. But when parents go in there, "If you do that one more time, you're going back there," and basically you gave them a free hit to their sibling per se.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Right. That's a good point.

Dr. Richard So:

And another thing too is that when dads blow their tops, we get all red, daddy's red, he's angry, yeah, I blow my top probably once a quarter and I think that's, that's kind of healthy.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Richard So:

Right. But when you blow your top and I've simmered down myself, do I want anyone telling me why I blew my top?

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Mm. That's true. And like you said, honestly, you probably feel worse than anybody, you know, at the end of the day about that.

Dr. Richard So:

You don't wanna bring that kid right back where they were-

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Right, right.

Dr. Richard So:

... that, that caused those frustrations and those angry feelings.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Right.

Dr. Richard So:

So don't do that to your kids when you do your timeouts. Once they've done their penance, let 'em go.

I think that was a great talk today. There was a lot packed in there. We could have talked for hours.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Absolutely.

Dr. Richard So:

So setting healthy boundaries is key to raising confident and well-behaved children. We hope this episode gave you some helpful tips and insights. If you would like to schedule an appointment with Cleveland Clinic Children's Pediatrician, please call 216.444.KIDS. And Dr. Thompson, how can our audience reach you?

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

So I am at the Akron General Health Center, um, down in Akron. And our number is 330.344.KIDS, K-I-D-S.

Dr. Richard So:

Thank you so much.

Dr. Shannon Thompson:

Thank you.

Dr. Richard So:

Thanks for listening to Little Health. We hope you enjoyed this episode. To keep the Little Health tips coming, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, or visit ClevelandClinicChildrens.org/Little Health.